1500km challenge Hyundai BEV (Ioniq 6) vs. Hyundai Hydrogen (Nexo)

3657 Views 33 Replies 15 Participants Last post by mishad, 5 d ago

Splendid Systems

Discussion Starter · 9 d ago

Columnists from the main Belgian paper have set up a challenge between the Hyundai Ioniq 6 and the Hyundai Nexo to understand where the technologies and infrastructure stand today and the results are interesting.

You need to register your email address to read the article but it's very interesting so I recommend it.

www.hln.be

De grote test. Onze journalisten reden 1.500 km naar Berlijn, welke auto is het snelst: elektrisch of waterstof?

De verkoop van benzine- en dieselauto’s wordt tegen 2035 verboden en dat zal onze manier van autorijden ingrijpend veranderen. Of toch niet? Onze autospecialisten Joost Bolle en Brecht Vanhaelewyn namen de proef op de som en reden van Kontich naar Berlijn met een auto van de (nabije) toekomst...

www.hln.be

The hydrogen car won hands down without breaking a sweat from arguably the most efficient BEV on the market.

Main takeaways:

-Electric SUV's are inefficient, hence nonsense. BEV's only make sense in the form of efficient cars like the Ioniq 6
-Hydrogen is already competitive with electric today, both in terms of hydrogen cost as well as vehicle purchase price, hence has a huge commercial potential
-The hydrogen car was more user friendly, thanks to the 5 minute refuellings. Can't beat that in any way with a BEV.

Conclusion:

The hydrogen car is not only a solution in the future, it is already today a user friendly option with technology available today.
It forms a proper alternative to BEV's in its current form.

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1 - 20 of 34 Posts

WithEthyl

· #2 · 9 d ago

Splendid Systems said:
The hydrogen car is not only a solution in the future, it is already today a user friendly option with technology available today.
It forms a proper alternative to BEV's in its current form.

Well for the UK that would be nonsense because you can count the number of hydrogen fueling stations on 2 hands, possibly even 1 hand, so it's only practical to a negligible number of drivers who live within convenient range of facilities.

These types of articles miss the point, it isn't about having a vehicle which works well on a particular type of fuel or energy source, it's about the wider system that the vehicle exists within, which includes all of the infrastructure to produce that fuel/energy in the quantities needed, distribute it to where its needed and then sell it to car drivers in a convenient way.

It isn't sufficient to have a good vehicle, it needs the energy system in place to support it and hydrogen doesn't have that currently. And given the difficulty in getting the system in place for EVs, despite electric being available pretty much everywhere, think of the challenges of building up a hydrogen fueling infrastructure.

Reactions: 3

AndyG

· #3 · 9 d ago

Splendid Systems said:
Columnists from the main Belgian paper have set up a challenge between the Hyundai Ioniq 6 and the Hyundai Nexo to understand where the technologies and infrastructure stand today and the results are interesting.

You need to register your email address to read the article but it's very interesting so I recommend it.

De grote test. Onze journalisten reden 1.500 km naar Berlijn, welke auto is het snelst: elektrisch of waterstof?

De verkoop van benzine- en dieselauto’s wordt tegen 2035 verboden en dat zal onze manier van autorijden ingrijpend veranderen. Of toch niet? Onze autospecialisten Joost Bolle en Brecht Vanhaelewyn namen de proef op de som en reden van Kontich naar Berlijn met een auto van de (nabije) toekomst...

www.hln.be

The hydrogen car won hands down without breaking a sweat from arguably the most efficient BEV on the market.

Main takeaways:

-Electric SUV's are inefficient, hence nonsense. BEV's only make sense in the form of efficient cars like the Ioniq 6
-Hydrogen is already competitive with electric today, both in terms of hydrogen cost as well as vehicle purchase price, hence has a huge commercial potential
-The hydrogen car was more user friendly, thanks to the 5 minute refuellings. Can't beat that in any way with a BEV.

Conclusion:

The hydrogen car is not only a solution in the future, it is already today a user friendly option with technology available today.
It forms a proper alternative to BEV's in its current form.

WHAT?????

Because we all drive 1500km every day.....

Pathetic, what a pointless waste of energy, no matter what way you try to spin this the hydrogen car was powered by fossil fuel and used 3 times more electricity than the BEV.....

What is also pathetic is you think driving 1500km and only stopping for 5 mins whilst standing at the hydrogen pump is a good idea.... What about eating, going to the toilet, not crashing because you are so tired from no rest breaks....

I have driven over 900 miles to Italy in a variety of cars and taking the Tesla made no difference to the time the trip takes....

Reactions: 2

Splendid Systems

Discussion Starter · #4 · 9 d ago

For those interested in H2 infrastructure in Europe, there are a few useful websites:

H2.LIVE: Wasserstofftankstellen in Deutschland & Europa

Echtzeitinformationen über alle Wasserstofftankstellen in Deutschland & Europa. Zuverlässig. Immer aktuell. Wo befinden sich Stationen heute und in Zukunft?

h2.live

France has a few more on this map and aiming for over 200 stations by 2025 https://vighy.france-hydrogene.org/cartographie-des-projets-et-stations/?cn-reloaded=1

36 stations under construction in Italy Auto a idrogeno, ecco dove potranno fare il pieno in Italia: mappa

The UK is running behind, but not for long: Hydrogen back on menu as UK fuel infrastructure takes shape | Autocar

The infrastructure is being built as we speak and in places like Germany and Netherlands it's already there, so it's only a matter of time.

Each station can power thousands of vehicles.

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AndyG

· #5 · 9 d ago

Splendid Systems said:
For those interested in H2 infrastructure in Europe, there are a few useful websites:

H2.LIVE: Wasserstofftankstellen in Deutschland & Europa

Echtzeitinformationen über alle Wasserstofftankstellen in Deutschland & Europa. Zuverlässig. Immer aktuell. Wo befinden sich Stationen heute und in Zukunft?

h2.live

France has a few more on this map and aiming for over 200 stations by 2025 https://vighy.france-hydrogene.org/cartographie-des-projets-et-stations/?cn-reloaded=1

36 stations under construction in Italy Auto a idrogeno, ecco dove potranno fare il pieno in Italia: mappa

The UK is running behind, but not for long: Hydrogen back on menu as UK fuel infrastructure takes shape | Autocar

The infrastructure is being built as we speak and in places like Germany and Netherlands it's already there, so it's only a matter of time.

Each station can power thousands of vehicles.

Each station can power thousands of cars A YEAR...... each day its a different story But as no one is buying FCV and the cost of doing so is much more than an BEV then costs 10 times more per mile to run one now one will but them....

Reactions: 1

Padrino

· #6 · 9 d ago

Splendid Systems said:
You need to register your email address to read the article but it's very interesting so I recommend it.

Anything so far that you have written doesn't make sense, so I think I will pass on your recommendation 😎

Reactions: 2

AndyG

· #7 · 9 d ago

Splendid Systems said:
For those interested in H2 infrastructure in Europe, there are a few useful websites:

H2.LIVE: Wasserstofftankstellen in Deutschland & Europa

Echtzeitinformationen über alle Wasserstofftankstellen in Deutschland & Europa. Zuverlässig. Immer aktuell. Wo befinden sich Stationen heute und in Zukunft?

h2.live

France has a few more on this map and aiming for over 200 stations by 2025 https://vighy.france-hydrogene.org/cartographie-des-projets-et-stations/?cn-reloaded=1

36 stations under construction in Italy Auto a idrogeno, ecco dove potranno fare il pieno in Italia: mappa

The UK is running behind, but not for long: Hydrogen back on menu as UK fuel infrastructure takes shape | Autocar

The infrastructure is being built as we speak and in places like Germany and Netherlands it's already there, so it's only a matter of time.

Each station can power thousands of vehicles.

The really hilarious thing is I bet you didn't even read the links you provided....

Little things like the UK stations are only going to deliver hydrogen at 350 bar meaning you can only half fill your Nexo....

Great news so you now own a car that will struggle to get between stations because they are 100 miles apart and the half full tanks will only give you 15o miles if you are lucky (you are assuming the stations are directly on your route). Thats car will have.....
Cost you nearly 50% MORE than a LR Tesla Y to buy
Weighs 300kg MORE than the Tesla
Takes TWICE as long to get from 0-60
Has HALF the range of the Tesla (you can only half fill the tanks)
Has a boot HALF the size of the Tesla and to cap it all of cost 32p a mile to drive it instead of the 2p it costs me to drive the Tesla PLUS instead of 10 seconds to plug my car in you have to drive to a dedicated station which isnt going to be next door to your house spending a lot longer to fill......

You are having a laugh..... You would have to beyond stupid to buy and TRY and run one in the UK

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Reactions: 5

Duff

· #8 · 9 d ago

[QUOTE="Splendid Systems, post: 3438965, member: 118330"

Each station can power thousands of vehicles.
[/QUOTE]
each station can fill a few dozen a day as it needs to repressure.

Reactions: 4

AndyG

· #9 · 9 d ago

Duff said:
[QUOTE="Splendid Systems, post: 3438965, member: 118330"

Each station can power thousands of vehicles.

each station can fill a few dozen a day as it needs to repressure.
[/QUOTE]

Of if it fills to many close together it needs to defrost

Reactions: 2

Padrino

· #10 · 9 d ago

AndyG said:
each station can fill a few dozen a day as it needs to repressure.

Of if it fills to many close together it needs to defrost
[/QUOTE]
Andy, obviously the guy/girl....whoever he/she is a complete troll. Over the last several days he/she/they have posted so much rubbish and it is your duty as moderator to control and prevent such a rubbish.
Please do something about it. With this kind of post he/she/they are creating unnecessary argument...we don't need this kind of nonsense here.

AndyG

· #11 · 9 d ago

Padrino said:
Of if it fills to many close together it needs to defrost

Andy, obviously the guy/girl....whoever he/she is a complete troll. Over the last several days he/she/they have posted so much rubbish and it is your duty as moderator to control and prevent such a rubbish.
Please do something about it. With this kind of post he/she/they are creating unnecessary argument...we don't need this kind of nonsense here.
[/QUOTE]

Nothing they have done as of yet breaks forum rules..... The way to sort it out is for people to use the report function that way the mods can get a feel for the forums consensus

Reactions: 1

mishad

· #12 · 9 d ago

Duff said:
[QUOTE="Splendid Systems, post: 3438965, member: 118330"

Each station can power thousands of vehicles.

each station can fill a few dozen a day as it needs to repressure.
[/QUOTE]

8K miles/year. 300 miles range. Assume a fillup is adding 250 miles range (average is likely to be rather lower in fact)

So at least 32 fillups per car per year needed on average (unlike BEV no one is going to be refilling FCEV at home).

If one station is going to support 1000 vehicles then it needs to be able to do at least 32K fillups per year, which is around 100 per day, which is one every 6 minutes for a solid 10 hours per day.

“each station can power thousands of vehicles“ is not really justifiable.

You thought the challenge of building out an EV charging network was bad? A hydrogen network for private FCEVs would be way more expensive!

Reactions: 2

AndyG

· #13 · 9 d ago

mishad said:
each station can fill a few dozen a day as it needs to repressure.

8K miles/year. 300 miles range. Assume a fillup is adding 250 miles range (average is likely to be rather lower in fact)

So at least 32 fillups per car per year needed on average (unlike BEV no one is going to be refilling FCEV at home).

If one station is going to support 1000 vehicles then it needs to be able to do at least 32K fillups per year, which is around 100 per day, which is one every 6 minutes for a solid 10 hours per day.

“each station can power thousands of vehicles“ is not really justifiable.

You thought the challenge of building out an EV charging network was bad? A hydrogen network for private FCEVs would be way more expensive!
[/QUOTE]

The trouble with you numbers is SS supplied a link in another thread showing the hydrogen stations going to be built (I don’t think so) will only supply it at 350 bar meaning it’s impossible to get more than half a tank….. you need to double all the numbers whilst halving the range

M4rm1t3

· #14 · 9 d ago

The original link is behind a paywall so i can't see any specific details.
So lets see the drawbacks.
Hyundai Nexo SE - 42mpkg (official figures not real world)
Cost in Germany for a kg of hydrogen - €13.85
So 33p per mile, oh and the £65,995 outlay for the car

There's quite a few stations in Germany but i don't think the 4 in the uk will be a winning draw.

Also its shows on this link when you clik on a station , when the last time the pump was used.

Hours in between, yeah yeah give it 10 years.

Can i ask if the hydrogen was created by solar/wind/nuclear - or by oil to keep it in line with the coal power stations Germany likes.

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Reactions: 1

Splendid Systems

Discussion Starter · #15 · 9 d ago (Edited)

M4rm1t3 said:
The original link is behind a paywall so i can't see any specific details. So lets see the drawbacks. Hyundai Nexo SE - 42mpkg (official figures not real world) Cost in Germany for a kg of hydrogen - €13.85 So 33p per mile, oh and the £65,995 outlay for the car There's quite a few stations in Germany but i don't think the 4 in the uk will be a winning draw. Also its shows on this link when you clik on a station , when the last time the pump was used. Hours in between, yeah yeah give it 10 years. Can i ask if the hydrogen was created by solar/wind/nuclear - or by oil to keep it in line with the coal power stations Germany likes.

You can ask the same question about electricity at rapids. Is it at all green?

AndyG said:
8K miles/year. 300 miles range. Assume a fillup is adding 250 miles range (average is likely to be rather lower in fact) So at least 32 fillups per car per year needed on average (unlike BEV no one is going to be refilling FCEV at home). If one station is going to support 1000 vehicles then it needs to be able to do at least 32K fillups per year, which is around 100 per day, which is one every 6 minutes for a solid 10 hours per day. “each station can power thousands of vehicles“ is not really justifiable. You thought the challenge of building out an EV charging network was bad? A hydrogen network for private FCEVs would be way more expensive!

The main issue with your argument is that you assume that an H2 station would only have one refuelling nozzle.
Why can't it have 2, 4, 6 or 8 refuelling positions?
The petrol station of the future will replace diesel and petrol nozzles 1:1 with hydrogen pumps and have rapids on the side.

Have you thought it through?

If a H2 station with 8 nozzles can comfortably serve 5000 H2 cars, how many chargers do you think you will need to keep 5000 BEV's running?
5000 AC chargers and about 100 rapids?
Moto Rugby has 11 rapids, you need 9 of those to get to 100 rapids.
And you still need 5000 home and street chargers on top of that.
Man, that's a lot of chargers.

And people are going to be walking around with cables all the time, plugging in, plugging out.
And people are going to waste weeks worth of their lives at rapid chargers.
Today I saw a poor chap trying to hypercharge his Taycan, and the thing just kept failing the handshake, and frustrations abound. He paid a fortune for his car, his hourly earnings must be huge to afford it and yet he has to waste time at rapids, pretty pathetic.

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Reactions: 1

Gary333

· #16 · 9 d ago

Haha, quality article that. You can bet this article was totally impartial and not at all sponsored by some Japanese car company. Good cover Toyota using Korean cars and testing via Belgium. What’s next in your handbook?

Reactions: 1

AndyG

· #17 · 8 d ago

Splendid Systems said:
The main issue with your argument is that you assume that an H2 station would only have one refuelling nozzle.
Why can't it have 2, 4, 6 or 8 refuelling positions?

Because it will cost a fortune that NO ONE is going to invest in an infrastructure that has NO VEHICLES to use it.... The point is with EV's that you can drive to any small village anywhere in the country and as a worst case plug into a 240v socket and use the vehicle. 100 mile apart hydrogen stations means the usability of a FCV is terrible

Splendid Systems said:
If a H2 station with 8 nozzles can comfortably serve 5000 H2 cars, how many chargers do you think you will need to keep 5000 BEV's running?
5000 AC chargers and about 100 rapids?
Moto Rugby has 11 rapids, you need 9 of those to get to 100 rapids.
And you still need 5000 home and street chargers on top of that.
Man, that's a lot of chargers.

You are completely ignoring the fact that over 95% of charging is done at home, something you cant do with hydrogen.... For every hydrogen car you NEED hydrogen pumps wherever you drive, for every BEV some may never do anything but charge at home, others will only need a few % of public chargers and for 25% of BEV's they will need 100% public charging. The BEV's with no home charging need fast chargers as the majority of their charging not Rapids

Splendid Systems said:
And people are going to be walking around with cables all the time, plugging in, plugging out.
And people are going to waste weeks worth of their lives at rapid chargers.
Today I saw a poor chap trying to hypercharge his Taycan, and the thing just kept failing the handshake, and frustrations abound. He paid a fortune for his car, his hourly earnings must be huge to afford it and yet he has to waste time at rapids, pretty pathetic.

Total bollox, as an estimate this year I will spend a total of under 3 hours rapid charging and that includes driving 900 miles to Italy...... I spent about 8 hours filling my diesel van up last year..... If that had been hydrogen even with better coverage I would have spent far longer wasting time filling with hydrogen especially as your post shows the pumps would only let me alf fill

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ThudnBlundr

· #18 · 8 d ago

The main problem with hydrogen is that it is expensive if you produce it sustainably, plus it is 2-3 times less efficient per kWh used than an EV. You can produce hydrogen more cheaply from natural gas, but then it becomes a fossil. Otherwise the cost is substantially more than an EV for the same distance travelled. And you need 2-3 times the additional power stations to run a hydrogen fleet compared to EV.

So who would want to pay substantially more to run their car? Who would pay for all the additional generation needed to generate the hydrogen? And who would pay for setting up a complete hydrogen infrastructure from scratch? Apart from all those downsides, it's obviously a winner! 🙄🤣

Splendid Systems

Discussion Starter · #19 · 8 d ago

ThudnBlundr said:
The main problem with hydrogen is that it is expensive if you produce it sustainably, plus it is 2-3 times less efficient per kWh used than an EV. You can produce hydrogen more cheaply from natural gas, but then it becomes a fossil. Otherwise the cost is substantially more than an EV for the same distance travelled. And you need 2-3 times the additional power stations to run a hydrogen fleet compared to EV.

So who would want to pay substantially more to run their car? Who would pay for all the additional generation needed to generate the hydrogen? And who would pay for setting up a complete hydrogen infrastructure from scratch? Apart from all those downsides, it's obviously a winner! 🙄🤣

98% of the UK population are running their ICE with more expensive fossil fuel than electric.
This is 12 years into mass production of BEV's.

Sitting at a charger costs time, and time is money.

To make the most of a BEV, you need solar, you need a charger, you need a driveway.
1 in 4 households rents their home, so you can forget the solar (nobody installs solar on a rental property), the charger.
1 out of 3 don't have a driveway or garage.
The median disopsable income is about £29K. So half of the UK would have to spend a full year working for their BEV.

That should rule out BEV ownership for about 90% of people in the UK.

Reactions: 2

M4rm1t3

· #20 · 7 d ago

Splendid Systems said:
98% of the UK population are running their ICE with more expensive fossil fuel than electric.
This is 12 years into mass production of BEV's.

Sitting at a charger costs time, and time is money.

To make the most of a BEV, you need solar, you need a charger, you need a driveway.
1 in 4 households rents their home, so you can forget the solar (nobody installs solar on a rental property), the charger.
1 out of 3 don't have a driveway or garage.
The median disopsable income is about £29K. So half of the UK would have to spend a full year working for their BEV.

That should rule out BEV ownership for about 90% of people in the UK.

How many of those without a driveway actually own a car anyway?
That figure never gets released.

Reactions: 1

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