Speak EV - Electric Car Forums banner
1 - 20 of 41 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
64 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi I am hoping I might get a few pointers on a Wall Box Install in a somewhat complicated location.
I have watched the following video and undertaken a Pre Installation survey based upon the steps shown and this has raised quite a few challenges for me and the location.
(BTW a great video and really helpful – thanks to the two chaps who are shown.)

The good news is I have off road parking and a garage which has electric wall sockets.

The bad news is numerous and this is what I need help with.
1st The main consumer unit is at the front of a terraced 1700’s property and the consumer unit is plastic and installed in 1995 so 26 years ago. It has no spare RCB’s and there is no off road parking at the front as it fronts on to main road. Undertaking any run from front of house to garage is not possible as public land and passes neighbours house.

The main consumer unit is single phase, TN-C-S with a 60amp fuse and the RCD is rated to 30mA

140742


140746


2nd The main consumer unit was supplemented by an additional unit in the boiler room at the rear of the house I am guessing around an internal 10 meter cable run with 6mm cable. This was done in 2002 again not a metal consumer unit and was used to add circuits when the house was extended into attic and garden room added.

140743


3rd From this boiler room consumer unit the cable to the garage was reconnected (again 6mm) and this runs underground under neighbours rear lawn to garage. This run is approximately a 30 meter run in conduit and I think done in between 1955 – 1966. (Originally the run to the garage was off it’s own RCB on the main consumer unit at front of house and then when the sparky needed more RCB’s for the house upgrade he proposed that as the solution and installed the new consumer unit.)

140745


Based upon my calcs of the run to the garage it looks like I could install a 3.6kWH box based on cable sizes but is border line on a 7.2kWH box.

Questions / help needed…
However I don’t think that will be possible as no installer will want to run the supply from before the main Consumer unit? This is based upon following the various threads about other people trying to install and complications noted.

The only option that I can see is having a new supply installed in the garage by the DNO as the pole is 30meters away as crow flies over my neighbours land or around 40 meters if we dog leg around neighbour and up shared driveway. This will incur the DNO cost and a monthly standing charge which somewhat takes the shine off investing in an EV.

So is that my only option or can I get a wall box charger run off a spare circuit on the second consumer unit. I could maybe run cable just for the charger from the boiler room as I have a couple of spare circuits.

Thank you to anyone who has read this far and not lost the will to live, and can offer any advice…
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
64 Posts
Discussion Starter · #2 ·
BTW I realise I could just use a Granny Charger but I am dubious about doing that based upon other threads I have read about continuos use of them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,083 Posts
You could get an EVSE made by Viridian. Their ECU (controller module) comes switch-settable to 16 or 32A charging as that's the 2 most commonly used values, but you can instead screw a tiny resistor to 2 of the terminals and set the charging current to anything from 6A, the minimum any EV will charge at, up to 32A, in tiny increments. So if you decide that e.g. 8.7A is the most you can safely take continuously, it's a cinch to get the particular resistor value to give you that charge rate (I'll post you one if you like). And then you have a reliable EVSE with proper, heavyweight Contactor, RCBO etc etc, without the drawbacks of using a Granny EVSE long-term.

I have a Viridian ECU retro-fitted to my 32A dumb Rolec. Any day now, I'me going to get back onto my project to control the charging current using an adjustable resistor, itself controlled by another computer monitoring my solar panel exports.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
64 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thanks Andy I have been following this site for around two months and I am still learning so will have a google on those words to see what that involves.

It seems you are saying I could use the existing Elec cables but limit the take and remove vulnerabilities of the Granny Charger.

I have done the power usage calcs as shown in that video and it is not good as we have a large house and garden shed on another consumer unit.

Rather than confuse this thread with the calcs I might spin up another thread to see what is reasonable to estimate / what is legal to meet any regulations...

Anyway let me spend some time looking at what you have said to make sure I understand what is possible. I guess it is a halfway house between Granny Charger and Charge Point?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,083 Posts
Charging (for most EVs) comes in 2 flavours, Rapid DC stuff at 44 kW or more. Totally irrelevant here. Other is 250V AC charging. (This can be 44 kW 3-phase flavour used by Zoes, again irrelevant here). "Charge Point" could be anything at all I reckon.

The (lower-power) AC stuff is all the same at heart, going continuously from 6A = 1.5 kW, right up to possibly 22 kW if you have 32A, 3 Phase power available. High-streets, Cinemas etc may well do so, but really these are the same thing as a granny EVSE, same plug in the car, same communications stuff between EVSE & car.

Granny EVSEs are usually limited to 10A, thx to 13A socket limit plus the tendency to overheat very quickly if run at 13A continuously! Using 10A is an attempt to reduce this risk, but doesnt always work, so I now stick to 6A. Heating effects go up as the square of the current, so 10A gives off about 60% the heat of 13A, and 6A is only 21% the heating effect of 13A, so far less likely to overheat.

Using a wall-mounted EVSE set to a low current is exactly the same as using a granny EVSE, except you haven't got that unreliable 13A plug & socket around. (And the bits are a bit beefier).

An improvement on the 13A mains socket is to use a Commando socket, and an EVSE that plugs into one of those, such as Ohme, or evconnectors.com. These have the advantage of being portable when you travel, but I don't know how precisely you can set the current levels on Ohme. Evconnectors.com ones let you choose 6, 8, 10, 13, or 16A values.

I can set my ID.3 to "Reduced AC Charging" and that limits it to 6A, but if I forget to set this, it's going to try & take the max the EVSE will offer it, usually this will be 16 or 32A, and if that's going to blow your setup, best not to rely on remembering to always set "Reduced AC Charging"! The car will not try to take more current than the EVSE is set to offer it, range is 6A upwards in infinitely-small increments, usually stopping at 32A tho' the standard goes up to 80A I think.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,635 Posts
Can you clarify what you mean by 'However I don’t think that will be possible as no installer will want to run the supply from before the main Consumer unit?'

The cable to the garage runs through conduit - how big is the conduit? Is the cable tight in it?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
346 Posts
Pick a charger you want.

Get the company who design/install it to survey.

They'll tell you what you need to do before they turn up.

1st thing to do is get that 60amp service fuse upgraded.

Personally I'd get all my DBs upgraded by a local spark, I'd then make sure the cable feeding the garage was big enough.

I was always told as a good rule of thumb a rewire every 20 years is about right.
 

·
Registered
Nissan LEAF30
Joined
·
8,617 Posts
As @ChrisCross123, do you have the option to upgrade the cable buried in conduit? And is there the option to add a dedicated feed from the front to rear of the house? That appears to be in plastic conduit.
Effectively, could you run a dedicated 10mm from the meter to the garage via the house and existing conduit?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,741 Posts
Hi I am hoping I might get a few pointers on a Wall Box Install in a somewhat complicated location.
I have watched the following video and undertaken a Pre Installation survey based upon the steps shown and this has raised quite a few challenges for me and the location.
(BTW a great video and really helpful – thanks to the two chaps who are shown.)

The good news is I have off road parking and a garage which has electric wall sockets.

The bad news is numerous and this is what I need help with.
1st The main consumer unit is at the front of a terraced 1700’s property and the consumer unit is plastic and installed in 1995 so 26 years ago. It has no spare RCB’s and there is no off road parking at the front as it fronts on to main road. Undertaking any run from front of house to garage is not possible as public land and passes neighbours house.

The main consumer unit is single phase, TN-C-S with a 60amp fuse and the RCD is rated to 30mA

View attachment 140742

View attachment 140746

2nd The main consumer unit was supplemented by an additional unit in the boiler room at the rear of the house I am guessing around an internal 10 meter cable run with 6mm cable. This was done in 2002 again not a metal consumer unit and was used to add circuits when the house was extended into attic and garden room added.

View attachment 140743

3rd From this boiler room consumer unit the cable to the garage was reconnected (again 6mm) and this runs underground under neighbours rear lawn to garage. This run is approximately a 30 meter run in conduit and I think done in between 1955 – 1966. (Originally the run to the garage was off it’s own RCB on the main consumer unit at front of house and then when the sparky needed more RCB’s for the house upgrade he proposed that as the solution and installed the new consumer unit.)

View attachment 140745

Based upon my calcs of the run to the garage it looks like I could install a 3.6kWH box based on cable sizes but is border line on a 7.2kWH box.

Questions / help needed…
However I don’t think that will be possible as no installer will want to run the supply from before the main Consumer unit? This is based upon following the various threads about other people trying to install and complications noted.

The only option that I can see is having a new supply installed in the garage by the DNO as the pole is 30meters away as crow flies over my neighbours land or around 40 meters if we dog leg around neighbour and up shared driveway. This will incur the DNO cost and a monthly standing charge which somewhat takes the shine off investing in an EV.

So is that my only option or can I get a wall box charger run off a spare circuit on the second consumer unit. I could maybe run cable just for the charger from the boiler room as I have a couple of spare circuits.

Thank you to anyone who has read this far and not lost the will to live, and can offer any advice…
The good news is that the 6mm2 run to the garage is in conduit. Suggest you pull through a bigger cable. Likewise replace the internal 6mm2 cable to the 2nd consumer unit. Best to get a sparky to check out space for new protective switchgear and best way to provide RCD descrimination.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
64 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Charging (for most EVs) comes in 2 flavours, Rapid DC stuff at 44 kW or more. Totally irrelevant here. Other is 250V AC charging. (This can be 44 kW 3-phase flavour used by Zoes, again irrelevant here). "Charge Point" could be anything at all I reckon.

The (lower-power) AC stuff is all the same at heart, going continuously from 6A = 1.5 kW, right up to possibly 22 kW if you have 32A, 3 Phase power available. High-streets, Cinemas etc may well do so, but really these are the same thing as a granny EVSE, same plug in the car, same communications stuff between EVSE & car.

Granny EVSEs are usually limited to 10A, thx to 13A socket limit plus the tendency to overheat very quickly if run at 13A continuously! Using 10A is an attempt to reduce this risk, but doesnt always work, so I now stick to 6A. Heating effects go up as the square of the current, so 10A gives off about 60% the heat of 13A, and 6A is only 21% the heating effect of 13A, so far less likely to overheat.

Using a wall-mounted EVSE set to a low current is exactly the same as using a granny EVSE, except you haven't got that unreliable 13A plug & socket around. (And the bits are a bit beefier).

An improvement on the 13A mains socket is to use a Commando socket, and an EVSE that plugs into one of those, such as Ohme, or evconnectors.com. These have the advantage of being portable when you travel, but I don't know how precisely you can set the current levels on Ohme. Evconnectors.com ones let you choose 6, 8, 10, 13, or 16A values.

I can set my ID.3 to "Reduced AC Charging" and that limits it to 6A, but if I forget to set this, it's going to try & take the max the EVSE will offer it, usually this will be 16 or 32A, and if that's going to blow your setup, best not to rely on remembering to always set "Reduced AC Charging"! The car will not try to take more current than the EVSE is set to offer it, range is 6A upwards in infinitely-small increments, usually stopping at 32A tho' the standard goes up to 80A I think.
This response is superb and really helped me, thank you.

My language was / is imprecise and you have helped clarify the various approaches. Your described approach of setting it to just 6A might be want I can do until I sort out the cabling. Now to google how long it will take to charge by restricting it to 6A.....

Hmmm quick google and some simple maths later a long time... 27 Hours for say a Nissan Leaf?

OK so this might be doable for my 1st car as it will be a run around for wife and myself. How do you manage it as such a slow rate? (I will search further to see if you have already posted your approach after answering rest of thread..)
 

·
Registered
Hyundai Ioniq 28
Joined
·
8,744 Posts
Now to google how long it will take to charge by restricting it to 6A.....

Hmmm quick google and some simple maths later a long time... 27 Hours for say a Nissan Leaf?
The miles gained by charging at 6 amps would be around 6 per hour. An overnight charge would load 45 to 50 miles of range. Whilst a simple calculation of empty to full reveals many hours involved, in practice that would be a very rare event. If a normal drive pattern is less than 45 miles per day and the battery is usually kept no lower than 20% to maintain a range buffer, then such a low rate of charge would still be perfectly workable. In fact, over a week or so of driving fewer miles than are being replaced overnight then a different problem will arise as it is not good practice to run a battery at 100% for long periods and some nights a charge would not be required.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
64 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Can you clarify what you mean by 'However I don’t think that will be possible as no installer will want to run the supply from before the main Consumer unit?'

The cable to the garage runs through conduit - how big is the conduit? Is the cable tight in it?
Hi Chris thanks for the response and questions.

On the video at 7:43 they talk about best practice and using the existing CU spare way. The talk is about selectivity and RCD protection being confused. So best practice is to use the non RCD side of the CU. The boiler room CU is on my RCD side of the the main CU board. See image below.

140792


So I think I have a red flag raised because my Boiler Room CU is RCD protected by the main CU and selectivity might be an issue and installers for say Zappi will only be interested in taking a supply from the tails before it hits the main CU. Easy life and all that....

There are other threads on the web site here that seem to imply that and I can see if I can get specific quotes about that later today.

So that's what I think the issue is.... I am learning so I could be wrong so happy to be advised otherwise...

Now to questions about the conduit to the garage. This was done in the 60's well before we owned the house and it appears to be a mix of plastic (at garage end) and a metal pipe small diameter at the house end.

I have had fun and games running a SWA for a new Shed through some more modern plastic piping and it was a bitch to do. If the metal pipe was large enough I might be tempted to do it but I think the increase in size might be just a bit too tight for the existing metal conduit.

I do have the option of running a SWA surfaced clipped to the garage along our border and that might be the better route than trying to break my back with 10mm through a 6mm hole...

As for the run from the main CU this house is effectively three 1700 cottages knocked together and nothing is ever straight forward. I could run a 10mm cable from the main CU to the Boiler room but it will require some contortion up and over through the attic which is a now a lovely bedroom with limited under floor access. It is possible but ain't going to be easy and I am not as young as I used to be for getting into tight spaces to pull a heavy cable through...

Of course I might be tempted if it saves me money as my Yorkshire heritage would come into play... ;)

So if it was possible to get a 7.2kWH charger set up from the boiler room CU I might be tempted to see if I can thread a 10mm cable from the front to the rear of the house.

:)

Now to question about the Fuse I think I mean the main DNO fuse and this is based upon my reading of the paperwork from the 1995 paper report provided when we bought the house. I perhaps have wrongly ID'd it as 60Amp and perhaps it is 100Amps? I will see if I can verify by looking at markings on the fuse itself... (Looks like Bakerlite very period...)

As ever I am truly grateful for everyone's help so far as your questions are helping me understand the issues and I want anything I undertake to be truly safe.

140794


140795


140793
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
64 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Pick a charger you want.

Get the company who design/install it to survey.

They'll tell you what you need to do before they turn up.

1st thing to do is get that 60amp service fuse upgraded.

Personally I'd get all my DBs upgraded by a local spark, I'd then make sure the cable feeding the garage was big enough.

I was always told as a good rule of thumb a rewire every 20 years is about right.
Yes 20 year rule of thumb is something I am aware of but I am tight with my cash and the problem of digging out cable to replace it after we have just got the house the way we want it is a hurdle I don't fancy or want to try and sell to my better half.

It is a separate project for me to assess the risks and what is involved, I might undertake getting a survey done but I do not want to throw money away unless I get benefit from it. When I have more time I will be digging into what a rewire involves and what are the risks, I have done some superficial searches and not come up with a conclusive answer other than that my main CU might benefit from being a metal boxed unit, so that might be an upgrade to consider depending on cost...

As for getting a company to design and install I have had plenty of experience of trying to get folk to quote for this old house and many (most) walk away as they want a simple life, don't blame them but that's why I am trying to see what is possible and what's involved before I try and charm someone to take the job on...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
64 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
The miles gained by charging at 6 amps would be around 6 per hour. An overnight charge would load 45 to 50 miles of range. Whilst a simple calculation of empty to full reveals many hours involved, in practice that would be a very rare event. If a normal drive pattern is less than 45 miles per day and the battery is usually kept no lower than 20% to maintain a range buffer, then such a low rate of charge would still be perfectly workable. In fact, over a week or so of driving fewer miles than are being replaced overnight then a different problem will arise as it is not good practice to run a battery at 100% for long periods and some nights a charge would not be required.
Hi yes this would work for the run around as at the moment we maybe do 50 miles at most (Lock down joys).

Ultimately I would be looking to get the main car as an EV (2 or so years time) so I want the possibility of getting that ready for a longer journey, but in the short term I could certainly follow Andy's sound advice and safely limit the charge.

Seems like a no brainer without having to mess with existing set up.

Obviously if the quick charging network improves (or I can find one nearby) I can use that to boost the main car for longer journeys outside the norm local stuff.

1st step is to make sure I can get the right infrastructure in place for my wife to be happy and then get the right car for her.

The current garage is a 1960's prefab concrete construction and has long been on our list to update but as it is shared wall with neighbour we need his agreement to update at same time and an upgrade to an EV will maybe help the process to get it updated to something more suitable.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
346 Posts
The national companies would survey for free.

They'll engage the DNO for you

Give you a price for "extra" works at a massive cost (they don't want to do it)

You take the list and either do it yourself or get someone in.


They turn up and install.

My advice would be to get a podpoint.

Run a 10mm t&e and a 2 core 0.5mm data cable run from you main fuse area to were you want the charger.

Podpoint will install a small dB with rcbo from your Henley block and a CT clamp all inclusive in standard price.

They won't touch your current dB (to much risk).

That's your cheapest option.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,635 Posts
Hi Chris thanks for the response and questions.

On the video at 7:43 they talk about best practice and using the existing CU spare way. The talk is about selectivity and RCD protection being confused. So best practice is to use the non RCD side of the CU. The boiler room CU is on my RCD side of the the main CU board. See image below.

View attachment 140792

So I think I have a red flag raised because my Boiler Room CU is RCD protected by the main CU and selectivity might be an issue and installers for say Zappi will only be interested in taking a supply from the tails before it hits the main CU. Easy life and all that....

There are other threads on the web site here that seem to imply that and I can see if I can get specific quotes about that later today.

So that's what I think the issue is.... I am learning so I could be wrong so happy to be advised otherwise...

Now to questions about the conduit to the garage. This was done in the 60's well before we owned the house and it appears to be a mix of plastic (at garage end) and a metal pipe small diameter at the house end.

I have had fun and games running a SWA for a new Shed through some more modern plastic piping and it was a bitch to do. If the metal pipe was large enough I might be tempted to do it but I think the increase in size might be just a bit too tight for the existing metal conduit.

I do have the option of running a SWA surfaced clipped to the garage along our border and that might be the better route than trying to break my back with 10mm through a 6mm hole...

As for the run from the main CU this house is effectively three 1700 cottages knocked together and nothing is ever straight forward. I could run a 10mm cable from the main CU to the Boiler room but it will require some contortion up and over through the attic which is a now a lovely bedroom with limited under floor access. It is possible but ain't going to be easy and I am not as young as I used to be for getting into tight spaces to pull a heavy cable through...

Of course I might be tempted if it saves me money as my Yorkshire heritage would come into play... ;)

So if it was possible to get a 7.2kWH charger set up from the boiler room CU I might be tempted to see if I can thread a 10mm cable from the front to the rear of the house.

:)

Now to question about the Fuse I think I mean the main DNO fuse and this is based upon my reading of the paperwork from the 1995 paper report provided when we bought the house. I perhaps have wrongly ID'd it as 60Amp and perhaps it is 100Amps? I will see if I can verify by looking at markings on the fuse itself... (Looks like Bakerlite very period...)

As ever I am truly grateful for everyone's help so far as your questions are helping me understand the issues and I want anything I undertake to be truly safe.

View attachment 140794

View attachment 140795

View attachment 140793
Yes, that all indicates your DNO /
Hi Chris thanks for the response and questions.

On the video at 7:43 they talk about best practice and using the existing CU spare way. The talk is about selectivity and RCD protection being confused. So best practice is to use the non RCD side of the CU. The boiler room CU is on my RCD side of the the main CU board. See image below.

View attachment 140792

So I think I have a red flag raised because my Boiler Room CU is RCD protected by the main CU and selectivity might be an issue and installers for say Zappi will only be interested in taking a supply from the tails before it hits the main CU. Easy life and all that....

There are other threads on the web site here that seem to imply that and I can see if I can get specific quotes about that later today.

So that's what I think the issue is.... I am learning so I could be wrong so happy to be advised otherwise...

Now to questions about the conduit to the garage. This was done in the 60's well before we owned the house and it appears to be a mix of plastic (at garage end) and a metal pipe small diameter at the house end.

I have had fun and games running a SWA for a new Shed through some more modern plastic piping and it was a bitch to do. If the metal pipe was large enough I might be tempted to do it but I think the increase in size might be just a bit too tight for the existing metal conduit.

I do have the option of running a SWA surfaced clipped to the garage along our border and that might be the better route than trying to break my back with 10mm through a 6mm hole...

As for the run from the main CU this house is effectively three 1700 cottages knocked together and nothing is ever straight forward. I could run a 10mm cable from the main CU to the Boiler room but it will require some contortion up and over through the attic which is a now a lovely bedroom with limited under floor access. It is possible but ain't going to be easy and I am not as young as I used to be for getting into tight spaces to pull a heavy cable through...

Of course I might be tempted if it saves me money as my Yorkshire heritage would come into play... ;)

So if it was possible to get a 7.2kWH charger set up from the boiler room CU I might be tempted to see if I can thread a 10mm cable from the front to the rear of the house.

:)

Now to question about the Fuse I think I mean the main DNO fuse and this is based upon my reading of the paperwork from the 1995 paper report provided when we bought the house. I perhaps have wrongly ID'd it as 60Amp and perhaps it is 100Amps? I will see if I can verify by looking at markings on the fuse itself... (Looks like Bakerlite very period...)

As ever I am truly grateful for everyone's help so far as your questions are helping me understand the issues and I want anything I undertake to be truly safe.

View attachment 140794

View attachment 140795

View attachment 140793
Personally I would bite the bullet now. If you do a minimal job now to get 6A charging capability and the full job later it will end up costing you more.

I would go for the surface clipped SWA along the garage and take the charger supply from upstream of the main CU. Bypasses all the other electrics so arguably a safer install.

Worth speaking to your DNO about getting your service fuse upgraded from 60A, and getting an isolator switch installed at the same time.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
64 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Yes, that all indicates your DNO /

Personally I would bite the bullet now. If you do a minimal job now to get 6A charging capability and the full job later it will end up costing you more.

I would go for the surface clipped SWA along the garage and take the charger supply from upstream of the main CU. Bypasses all the other electrics so arguably a safer install.

Worth speaking to your DNO about getting your service fuse upgraded from 60A, and getting an isolator switch installed at the same time.
Hi Chris,

Just making sure I understand what you are saying is feasible?

I will not be able to run the SWA from the main CU. Just from a spare way on the Boiler room CU. Even if I could get a SWA up and over in the attic the length of run is around 55 meters. Just from the boiler room an externally clipped SWA will be around 40 meters. That is doable

Are you saying that I will be able to run the SWA from the boiler room CU on spare way and even though the boiler room CU is on the main CU protected by the RCD circuit.

An installer from a mainstream supplier would be fine with that, despite the mentions in the video about not best practice?

I will certainly see if I can get the fuse uprated and an isolator put in. I have requested a smart meter so will try and tie that in together but space might be too tight for an isolator?

Cheers
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,635 Posts
I suspect most / all installers would be unhappy with taking a supply from your boiler room CU, and if it were my house I would not be keen either.

I would split off a charger supply on the output from the meter, and have a mini CU for the charger by the main CU (appreciating there are challenges with space. I would then run an appropriately sized twin and earth to the back of the house and terminate it in a junction box. Then run SWA from the junction box to the charger. Others may well prefer to use conduit and run the whole length in T+E, it is personal preference really. I work in an industry that realised a long time ago that all sorts of nastiness can be hidden in conduit or trunking so my OCD triggers me to use clipped direct cables where possible. I can look at the calcs for you later if you like.

I think a lot of OLEV installers can pick and choose their work at the moment, so are likely to class everything out of the ordinary as too difficult. You will need to shop around.
 
1 - 20 of 41 Posts
Top