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Discussion Starter #1
Hi all,

We get a lot of customers wanting 22kw chargers. Understandable if you have three phase at home, but we then have to explain that many cars do not take 22kW AC at home so they won't benefit much in most cases.

Cue customers telling us that "dealer said this" and "I thought it did 50kW" etc. And I'm really sympathetic because it can be a minefield to new people.

So, I've been thinking about writing a guide on 22kw charging/three phase , but wanted to check...

Does everyone else find it all a bit baffling/complex too? What's been your experience and do you encounter others who've struggled with this too?
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Not that many. I should have said that a good number of customers want to get three phase installed so they can get a 22kw charger. That's my worry about the lack of understanding about on board chargers.
 

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You could simply say if you have a Tesla, Outlander or a Zoe (there may be 1 or 2 others?), there is a benefit to 3 phase, otherwise, no!
 

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I'd say it was more to do with the dealers not knowing & so not been able to properly advise the people who are buying an EV, If all the dealer networks had people with the enthusiasm & knowledge of "Badger in Black" then life would be much easier for all...
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Yeah, I think that's what I'm getting at. We can, and obviously do, advise customers on whether it's worth getting a 22kw at home, but it was more about educating drivers so they aren't under the wrong impression about charging times for their vehicle.

@ScottC you're right and we do explain where there are benefits. It's just concerning how many people want to put in three phase in place just for their chargers... It's expensive stuff!

In addition, some cars don't even benefit that much. The Tesla Model 3 will do 11kW AC at home. I'm not sure that's worth the jump in cost.
Maybe if you already have three phase and the 22kW charger is no more money, but otherwise I'm not sure how much benefit there really is. Could be wrong.

The Zoe is different as that actually charges at 22kW AC if I'm not mistaken.
 

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Yes, people do seem to find it confusing. It's hard to explain the difference between AC and DC charging and the limitation of the on board charger.

Hard to know how to best educate people as it's maybe too complicated for your average layman to immediately grasp. I'd probably just tell people that 22kW is unlikely to be useful except in very specific circumstances.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Yes, people do seem to find it confusing. It's hard to explain the difference between AC and DC charging and the limitation of the on board charger.

Hard to know how to best educate people as it's maybe too complicated for your average layman to immediately grasp. I'd probably just tell people that 22kW is unlikely to be useful except in very specific circumstances.
I think that's where my head is at too, to be honest so I am glad someone thinks something similar.
 

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Educating non-technical people about the capabilities, or lack thereof, of ICE vehicles hasn't been a great success over the years. And dealer's sales staff (mostly non-technical it seems) have thrown a lot of fertiliser into that mix, so I don't expect anything to change really.

As ever all one can do is offer education to the best of one's ability. Some will understand it, some won't but will take the advice anyway, and the rest will believe the earth is flat because there was a YouTube video about it. :eek:
 

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You could simply say if you have a Tesla, Outlander or a Zoe (there may be 1 or 2 others?), there is a benefit to 3 phase, otherwise, no!
Outlander only has a 3.7kw onboard charger.

Zoe does either 22kw or 43kw max ac depending on motor type -
Continental motor 43kw
Renault motor 22kw

Mercedes b250e can do 11kw 3 phase but that’s because it was built from the Tesla spare parts bin.

I am fairly well educated in EV matters but was slightly caught out myself recently, I ended up at a 22kw untethered public charge post in my Zoe and when I started charging I was getting around 7kw. I’ve recently discovered that my charge cable is only single phase ! It was a pretty odd charging post, it had 50kw dc for the chademo and ccs but the ac was only 22kw and untethered, only time I’ve ever seen a post like that.

Cheers
 

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I think the new Peugeot e-208 and Vauxhall Corsa-e may have 11kWh AC chargers, also some BMW i3's as well.
Indeed, the 94 and 120Ah BMW i3s are able to charge at a max rate of 11kW AC; however, to do so on a public fast untethered charger, a 3-phase cable must be used as mentioned above by G.a.r.y. Ecotricity offer free use of 22kW posts at some of their sites.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Tthis discussion on an enthusiast forum is probably just a small indication of the level of confusion that can invade the EV world. As others have said, I also consider myself quite educated in these matters as it's my passion, but I learn something new every day. In some areas, the level of detail is trivial to anyone but an enthusiast, but in others it can lead to a lot of confusion for new EV owners and even people making the wrong purchasing decisions.

We try and simplify EVs and car charging where we can, but it's a tough ask sometimes! :ROFLMAO:
 

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To be fair, part of the problem is that it is/was early days for EVs and a variety of charging options have been adopted by different manufacturers and in different parts of the world. Chademo-CCS is an obvious example. It may get better ... or not.

On top of that the internet has allowed people to unwittingly find information not appropriate to their country. For ICE cars the difference between US and UK octane ratings is often missed and thus misused.
 

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We try and simplify EVs and car charging where we can, but it's a tough ask sometimes! :ROFLMAO:
Dealers really need to explain things better or provide a car specific "quick start" guide for public charging.... i've heard stores like a couple in their brand new ipace using the type 2 AC on a rapid charger being surprised that the car says it will take 5 hours to charge.... clearly no idea that they should use a different connector to get it to go a lot faster.

The annoying thing is it can work. My wife has little interest in cars above convenience and comfort (she's a good test consumer !) - yet she will out of preference take the Zoe over her petrol car as it is so quiet and easy to drive and she will plug it in when she gets home so its charged ready for the morning... she hasn't yet done any public charging but most likely will do at some point (currently prefers to return home triumphantly stating that she "got the red --- miles again!!".
 

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The annoying thing is it can work. My wife has little interest in cars above convenience and comfort (she's a good test consumer !) - yet she will out of preference take the Zoe over her petrol car as it is so quiet and easy to drive and she will plug it in when she gets home so its charged ready for the morning... she hasn't yet done any public charging but most likely will do at some point (currently prefers to return home triumphantly stating that she "got the red --- miles again!!".
Is she prepared for the time when she is really caught out away from home? Does she have the appropriate apps/cards set up? I can see you getting a panic phone call sometime :)
 

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My wife has charged away from home many times over the last 18 months but I still get panic phone calls occasionally. If a charge is necessary to get home I check on the app that the car is actually charging once she's left it just in case there's an issue.

Some people just struggle to understand practical processes and it takes time to experience different issues to work out what needs to be done to get a charge at times.
 

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I believe the VW MEB platform cars will be 11kW three phase capable (not sure if that option will be fitted to the UK cars. The London Electric Taxi, manufactured by LEVC has 22 kW 3 phase charging capability together with CCS and Chademo socket DC charging.
 
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