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I'm not crazy, the attack has begun.
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You have said a few times 'breaking the law'.

Nothing was mentioned about the current law in the video (I watched a few minutes and saw nothing interesting ... if the voltage goes over 260V the car will cut out, so surely the NE difference will never exceed 20V).

You might be right but show me/state the law, please, if you know it, or stop speaking from a position of ignorance.
 

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You have said a few times 'breaking the law'.

Nothing was mentioned about the current law in the video (I watched a few minutes and saw nothing interesting ... if the voltage goes over 260V the car will cut out, so surely the NE difference will never exceed 20V).

You might be right but show me/state the law, please, if you know it, or stop speaking from a position of ignorance.
At a basic physics level voltage is relative. The whole point is that the condition to be addressed is a PEN fault. If you don’t understand that, watch again.
 

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I have asked Ohme for their best practice for commando to smart lead at 7kW. Will post their response.
The Ohme I purchased came with an instruction leaflet to hand to your electrician, and it recommended earthing the switched commando socket.

They've already written their best practice.
 

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For the final time, certain electrical changes under the wiring regulations require sign off with building control. This is the law and the fine is ‘up to £5k’. Lack of the cert also provides a problem at sale of the property and would be an issue if there’s a fire or whatever re insurance. New circuits and car charging points are both caught by this (along with a new consumer unit, work in a room with a bath or shower and hot tubs). That’s the list. The list changes with editions of wiring regs.

Yes you can DIY and in theory pay building control to inspect and test (about £300). In practice this is hard to do as they expect all notifiable works to be ‘delegated’ to an electrician who signs off via their scheme and will price such work high so there’s no gain.

Re your ‘the car will cut off’ - no it won’t if no PEN fault detection as the earth and neutral used to measure the voltage against aren’t there as a reference......the car is sitting on its tyres with a potential versus the driveway (or grass or whatever) just waiting for you to grab the door handle and provide an earth via your feet.
 

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The Ohme I purchased came with an instruction leaflet to hand to your electrician, and it recommended earthing the switched commando socket.

They've already written their best practice.
You would hope so and the MI (as the regs refer to manufacturers instructions) are mandatory.
 

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All this clever electronics malarkey is to address the missing ‘protective earth AND neutral (PEN))’ without requiring the poor electrician and householder to play earth rod bingo with all the buried services leading to their house. Also at TT rod is subject to the ground conditions. It may well test nicely on a wet winter day and then poorly after a long hot spell. The difference is the size of the tingle during a fault.....
 

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Car charge points are covered by the electrical regulations and legally by the building regulations.
Fixed car charge points - Yes.

A commando socket is not covered by those specific regs - it's a general purpose outlet covered by the normal regulations.
As such using a portable EVSE with one is not 'illegal' and no coroner can say it was in the event of a fatal incident.
 

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I'm not crazy, the attack has begun.
Joined
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27,605 Posts
For the final time, certain electrical changes under the wiring regulations require sign off with building control. This is the law and the fine is ‘up to £5k’. Lack of the cert also provides a problem at sale of the property and would be an issue if there’s a fire or whatever re insurance. New circuits and car charging points are both caught by this (along with a new consumer unit, work in a room with a bath or shower and hot tubs). That’s the list. The list changes with editions of wiring regs.

Yes you can DIY and in theory pay building control to inspect and test (about £300). In practice this is hard to do as they expect all notifiable works to be ‘delegated’ to an electrician who signs off via their scheme and will price such work high so there’s no gain.

Re your ‘the car will cut off’ - no it won’t if no PEN fault detection as the earth and neutral used to measure the voltage against aren’t there as a reference......the car is sitting on its tyres with a potential versus the driveway (or grass or whatever) just waiting for you to grab the door handle and provide an earth via your feet.
Swapping a 3 pin with a 32A ceeform is not notifiable work. No wiring change.

really, I am just after some text, rather than hearsay. Maybe you are right. I looked, and asked, and there was nothing specific when I did what I did, so I did it.

You say 'X'. Fine. Please show me 'X'.

It's your word against logic. If it was that big a problem, then it'd retrofit to the old ones.
 

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Fixed car charge points - Yes.

A commando socket is not covered by those specific regs - it's a general purpose outlet covered by the normal regulations.
As such using a portable EVSE with one is not 'illegal' and no coroner can say it was in the event of a fatal incident.
Interesting view. You accept a commando with no TT (or ‘equivalent’ protection) could result in a death but that’s OK as you think you wouldn’t go to jail.

I guess this, like many areas in life, is seen through a lens of personal values.

Of course the MI provided by Ohme do apply......meaning no TT or acceptable protection device would be negligence.
 

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Swapping a 3 pin with a 32A ceeform is not notifiable work. No wiring change.

really, I am just after some text, rather than hearsay. Maybe you are right. I looked, and asked, and there was nothing specific when I did what I did, so I did it.

You say 'X'. Fine. Please show me 'X'.

It's your word against logic. If it was that big a problem, then it'd retrofit to the old ones.
If the circuit was compliantly capable of supporting a 32A outlet, yes (not a ring etc). The MI for the Ohme still apply to its use in that socket (ie a compliant earth fault solution) but not if you use it for a lathe or whatever.

What troubles me is you rate family or self or subsequent owner safety lower than a maverick solution.

there’s a fine line between contrarian and ‘what?’.

I have used up enough time on this but the fact is ‘peddling’ a simple commando without earth fault and DC leakage protection for a car to charge off day in day out at high current is foolish.

Until recently electrical test tools used to inject DC to ‘lock up’ RCDs to allow circuit testing without tripping and without the need to take the RCD out of circuit. Now we place a car with an AC to DC high current system on the end and hence need an RCD that won’t whistle Dixie during another perfectly feasible fault condition (caused by wear, poor manufacture, age, etc). That’s the ‘special’ RCD (or other equiv inside the point) requirement and often the reason for a separate CU as the vendor of the older existing CU doesn’t/ didn’t make them.

none of this is hard, just detailed and a moveable feast with each iteration of the regulations. That’s what qualifies electricians are for.

perhaps stick a ‘use at your own risk (I do)’ sign up next to the commando?
 

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For the final time, certain electrical changes under the wiring regulations require sign off with building control. This is the law and the fine is ‘up to £5k’. Lack of the cert also provides a problem at sale of the property and would be an issue if there’s a fire or whatever re insurance. New circuits and car charging points are both caught by this (along with a new consumer unit, work in a room with a bath or shower and hot tubs). That’s the list. The list changes with editions of wiring regs.

Yes you can DIY and in theory pay building control to inspect and test (about £300). In practice this is hard to do as they expect all notifiable works to be ‘delegated’ to an electrician who signs off via their scheme and will price such work high so there’s no gain.
Re property sale, surely any DIY'd electrics in say a garage should be removed prior to sale. I would hope so for safety.
 

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Re property sale, surely any DIY'd electrics in say a garage should be removed prior to sale. I would hope so for safety.
There’s a standard question re sign off certs for any notifiable works. Removal would work otherwise unless responded to untruthfully the standard solicitor advice re a year but no cert’ is to ask vendor to pay for EICR then review the result (and to pay for an indemnity policy). An interlocked commando with nothing connected would just get tested and the circuit protection checked against the wire size and installation method and any issues noted and rated.
 

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It’s a complete aside but the reason most packaged charge point installs surface clip the cable is that allows the RCD to be in the charge point rather than at the source of the supply (if the cable is buried depending on the route taken it could require the RCD moved to the beginning of the cable - again lots of ifs and buts and basically to do with the risk of someone drilling into it etc).

The current regs are a good stab at safety with ease and speed of scaling roll out and the charge point vendors obviously want as much of the component cost in their device as they can to maximise returns while minimising work inside the house and into the driveway. Capitalism at work.

As is so often the case differentiation is around software features, looks and frictionless install.
 

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Interesting view. You accept a commando with no TT (or ‘equivalent’ protection) could result in a death but that’s OK as you think you wouldn’t go to jail.
You remind me of the people who think a single SARS2 particle will give you Covid19. The risk of PME failure is very low. You are far (as in 1000s of times) more likely to die driving the car than by this.
I'm not saying it's a risk to ignore, but there are others that are more worthwhile worrying about.

Of course the MI provided by Ohme do apply......meaning no TT or acceptable protection device would be negligence.
The Ohme instructions, as quoted above, are only a recommendation - not even a strong one at that. I doubt any court would uphold a claim of negligence.
 

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You remind me of the people who think a single SARS2 particle will give you Covid19. The risk of PME failure is very low. You are far (as in 1000s of times) more likely to die driving the car than by this.
I'm not saying it's a risk to ignore, but there are others that are more worthwhile worrying about.

The Ohme instructions, as quoted above, are only a recommendation - not even a strong one at that. I doubt any court would uphold a claim of negligence.
I won’t say what you remind me of.
 

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The Ohme instructions, as quoted above, are only a recommendation - not even a strong one at that. I doubt any court would uphold a claim of negligence.
Whilst they probably wouldn‘t take the Ohme instructions as gospel in any claim of negligence, they probably would be interested in how a competent electrician had performed any install in the event of a fatality.

They would look at duty of care, whether that was breached, and whether that breach caused harm.

If the installing electrician knew that the socket was to be used for charging a vehicle, but failed to meet the basic requirements recommended in the installation instructions, I wouldn’t want to be in their shoes should the worst happen, however unlikely.
 
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