Speak EV - Electric Car Forums banner

1 - 18 of 18 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
After almost two years of research on the 24kWh e-NV200, we ordered and recieved our brand new 40kWh e-NV200 in June of last year.

We've accounts on Twitter, and YouTube, and nowadays generally discuss the issue of rapidgate in the 40kWh van. We were never advised of such issues prior to purchase, and today find ourselves in a battle with Nissan. Currently they're choosing to ignore us, but we are doing all we can to get our story out there into the public domain. We're currently in talks with a major UK broadsheet, who we hope will bring some much needed publicity to our case.

Last summer we took our holidays in the US, and Canada, so it wasn't until this summer, when the fully impact of rapidgate became clear as we attempted a reasonably short trip around Europe.

Even getting to the EuroTunnel from our home in Hull was a severe chore.

First rapid, generally we get a full rapid rate (not always, subject to weather, distance to first rapid), the second rapid we draw 26-30kWh, and then a third rapid we draw 17kWh, which is totally useless. We've sat on rapid chargers over 90 minutes.

So we own a thirty grand city van, despite all due diligence on our part before purchase.

So why have I joined SpeakEV? Well I want to try to find other owners who are equally dissatisfied.

Whilst Nissan have "fixed" the Leaf40, their stance on our problems is to pretend it doesn't exist, when it is evidently exactly the same situation as the Leaf.

Hoping to hear from other owners.

All the best.

Rich
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
925 Posts
Hi Rich.

As well as the no action from Nissan we've all had as "it operates as designed", my complaint to the Motor Ombudsman is sat in limbo as they don't bother to respond either.

Have you had any reply from Nissan about your letter stating you intend to bill them for hire costs when doing a long journey?

Adam.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Hi Adam, nothing, nada... zilch 😂 I don't think they'll reply.

But at some point, they'll have a choice, face us in the small claims courts for all "out of pocket" expenses, or fail to turn up, and we win by default.

I can't say too much about the "broadsheet" newspaper investigation, but they have my letter, and they're going to directly to Nissan for comment.

The idea that they can simply ignore us is farcical. Fixing the Leaf but not ours is a big mistake. Even if they'd have simply acknowledged the problems, and said we're working on a Leaf style fix, we'd have probably said fine. But as it is, their inaction and denials are just insulting.

When you've spent a shed load of money on a vehicle, and then you've got to hire a car to do certain trips, then something is sorely wrong.

Isn't a sad state when the "little man" can be dumped upon from a great height by large motor manufacturers, and we're left floundering because no one wants to help.

I'll update as and when we hear anything more re the journalist tack.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
251 Posts
This is bad to hear, I would have thought that after all the years of issues with rapid charging Nissan would get to the bottom of it. I am not that familiar with the charging setup on the env200, does it use AC when you rapid charge, and if so is the AC not powerful enough to cool the battery so it still gets warm and the charge rate slows? Does it also AC the battery during driving or only charging?

Cheers.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
AC cooling only when charging. The system was designed for the 24kWh, so with a much denser battery, the heat build up is much more severe.

The system will cool at high battery temperatures, but nothing substantial enough to negate the software restrictive charging kicking in.

Utterly useless.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
251 Posts
OK that really is pretty poor. Presume your AC is all in working order and that is just what it does?

I guess in a van like this fully laiden for holiday doing motorway speed the range is 120 miles? So somewhere over 200 miles thats when you start to have the issue, then 300 mile journey complete pain? I am interested as I really want to replace my wife's 7 seat petrol car but there are few 7 seat fully electric so we've considered this van but would need 40kwh.

To be honest we would rarely travel this distance so I would still consider this van once the prices come down a bit but I would like to know the issue will be solved at some point, it can't be good for the battery to be hitting its max temperature.

Thanks.
 

·
I'm not crazy, the attack has begun.
Joined
·
23,090 Posts
If you feel you have justification to claim the vehicle does not function in the way that the vendor promised you, then you are at liberty to reject it and ask for your money back. If they do not, then take them to court for it, let the court decide.

Is a vehicle which claims a charge rate of 50kWh, but cannot sustain that for any time at all in certain circumstances, per the description of the goods? Does the literature make this claim? Did a salesman make it?

Why not piece together your collective evidence here (everyone) and see if there is a case?

My fees for being an expert witness are very reasonable, possibly pro bono in the right circumstances. ;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
251 Posts
The stupid thing really is that the env200 has active cooling vs passive only for the Leaf. The van can cool the battery using the AC system, but it only does this during rapid charging and not driving. I just watched a couple of videos including one by Bjørn Nyland, and the van would cool only when charging and never when driving, so you arrive at a charger with a hot battery. Seems like the AC system could slowly bring the temperature down during charging but the battery was already hot from driving so charging speed suffered.

If they could just put an over-ride in the menu so you can turn on battery cooling while driving, for example you are going on a long journey so will need multiple rapid charges, you can afford to use some juice to cool the battery pre-rapid charge so you turn on active cooling before you get to the charger and arrive with a cooler battery. Or some kind of "long journey/faster charging" mode where if the battery gets to a certain temperature during driving it will actively cool it so you arrive at chargers with a cooler battery. Clearly the car has the machinery, it can be fixed by software (if there is the will to do so).

I guess they did not do something like this from the outset because this means the van gets a worse range, as AC is being used for battery cooling while driving.

Cheers all.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,872 Posts
I guess they did not do something like this from the outset because this means the van gets a worse range, as AC is being used for battery cooling while driving.
And a colder battery will deliver less range
Would a battery cooled sufficient to avoid rapidgate (ie to about 40 deg C) have a lesser range than an even hotter battery? I thought the low range with cold batteries applied to batteries colder than about 20 deg C.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
251 Posts
env299
Would a battery cooled sufficient to avoid rapidgate (ie to about 40 deg C) have a lesser range than an even hotter battery? I thought the low range with cold batteries applied to batteries colder than about 20 deg C.
People have reported online that the env200 40Kwh with battery temp 42 c charges at 25kw max rate, so with some reduction in charge rate as it reaches fully charged you're looking at a 2 hour charge when battery temp gets above 40c...

As a comparison with other makes:
Tesla battery warmup to allow peak rate supercharging gets the battery to 40 celcius, seems like 40-50 c is where they want it to be during charging.
Leaf owners report slower charging above "the first red line" on the battery temp gauge, which is 50 c. Also report full speed rapid charge at 35 c.

So it looks like the 40kwh env200 is more conservative with its charge rate, i.e. the van will only charge at max speed when the battery is <40c whereas other makes charge at full speed into the 40s and also looks like the active cooling was not upgraded for the change from 24-40kwh. If you drive anything other than like your granny (and in any case if you're keeping up with motorway speeds) then the battery is going to get warm during driving and the battery cooling will not bring the temp down enough to allow full speed charging, which basically sucks because once the battery gets hot there is no way to bring it back down.

That is really poor - the technology is there, other vehicles can do constant rapid charges with motorway driving in between, including the Zoe and even the little i-miev, and the 24kwh env200.

Cheers.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
If you feel you have justification to claim the vehicle does not function in the way that the vendor promised you, then you are at liberty to reject it and ask for your money back. If they do not, then take them to court for it, let the court decide.

Is a vehicle which claims a charge rate of 50kWh, but cannot sustain that for any time at all in certain circumstances, per the description of the goods? Does the literature make this claim? Did a salesman make it?

Why not piece together your collective evidence here (everyone) and see if there is a case?

My fees for being an expert witness are very reasonable, possibly pro bono in the right circumstances. ;)
We've already taken legal advice.

We have a strong case to reject the vehicle, and we reserve the right to do so.

Right now we have the national press involved.

We have put Nissan on notice that we shall be taking them to court for all out of pocket expenses where we have to hire cars for longer trips.

The whole issue is that restrictive charging was never disclosed at the time of purchase. The 24kWh didn't suffer from rapidgate.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
env299
People have reported online that the env200 40Kwh with battery temp 42 c charges at 25kw max rate, so with some reduction in charge rate as it reaches fully charged you're looking at a 2 hour charge when battery temp gets above 40c...

As a comparison with other makes:
Tesla battery warmup to allow peak rate supercharging gets the battery to 40 celcius, seems like 40-50 c is where they want it to be during charging.
Leaf owners report slower charging above "the first red line" on the battery temp gauge, which is 50 c. Also report full speed rapid charge at 35 c.

So it looks like the 40kwh env200 is more conservative with its charge rate, i.e. the van will only charge at max speed when the battery is <40c whereas other makes charge at full speed into the 40s and also looks like the active cooling was not upgraded for the change from 24-40kwh. If you drive anything other than like your granny (and in any case if you're keeping up with motorway speeds) then the battery is going to get warm during driving and the battery cooling will not bring the temp down enough to allow full speed charging, which basically sucks because once the battery gets hot there is no way to bring it back down.

That is really poor - the technology is there, other vehicles can do constant rapid charges with motorway driving in between, including the Zoe and even the little i-miev, and the 24kwh env200.

Cheers.
Here's a chart showing our average chart rates at given battery temperatures.
123950
 

·
I'm not crazy, the attack has begun.
Joined
·
23,090 Posts
We've already taken legal advice.

We have a strong case to reject the vehicle, and we reserve the right to do so.

Right now we have the national press involved.

We have put Nissan on notice that we shall be taking them to court for all out of pocket expenses where we have to hire cars for longer trips.

The whole issue is that restrictive charging was never disclosed at the time of purchase. The 24kWh didn't suffer from rapidgate.
There is a world of difference between 'this was not disclosed' versus 'we expected this because we were told it'.

Those wigged old fuddies in court are unlikely to understand the subtlety of why you have some reasonable expectation of a given charge rate [which you do ... but if they don't then you might have a big legal bill on your table to deal with].

People have lost their homes for losing better cases than yours. Not saying don't fight it, but be cautious. Courts are there to make decision and make money for lawyers, they are not there to achieve a righteous outcome. Please be careful. Unless you have something indelible that indicates clearly the expectation you have, I would aim to seek to pull co-operatively with Nissan rather than push adversarially.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
We were advised to not attempt to bring any form of redress against Nissan in the county/high court... we don't have the financial resources. They would bring everything against us.

That's why we'll be going down the simple small claims court route to recoup car hire costs.

All due diligence on our part was undertaken. They specifically told us that other than a larger battery, the 40 was exactly the same as the 24. This isn't the case. Too much to explain in a text box (doing this on a mobile phone 😖)

Here's a link to our letter.


Currently a broadsheet newspaper is taking Nissan to task. Can't say much for now. But Nissan's floundering to say the least.
 

·
I'm not crazy, the attack has begun.
Joined
·
23,090 Posts
We were advised to not attempt to bring any form of redress against Nissan in the county/high court... we don't have the financial resources. They would bring everything against us.

That's why we'll be going down the simple small claims court route to recoup car hire costs.

All due diligence on our part was undertaken. They specifically told us that other than a larger battery, the 40 was exactly the same as the 24. This isn't the case. Too much to explain in a text box (doing this on a mobile phone 😖)

Here's a link to our letter.


Currently a broadsheet newspaper is taking Nissan to task. Can't say much for now. But Nissan's floundering to say the least.
Small claims is technically county court and the defendant might/has a right to ask for the case to be considered in plain court.

The only hiccup for going for rental costs is that you are effectively accepting the vehicle, because what you are essentially saying is 'It's OK, but there were some unexpected losses because it wasn't quite what we expected'.

It's a disappointment for sure and I think you are totally correct to try to get some media attention on this. Consumers need to know the details. Let them decide what is or is not important. I have not suffered this myself particularly, maybe others here who have might PM you to add to any media attention it might generate?

I still feel very aggrieved even at the lack of true 50kW charing. The books say 50kW. The chargers say 50kW. Never seen 50kW in my life. Any other walk of life that would be a done deal for misrepresentation.

In fact, thinking about it, bizarrely you might actually have a stronger case for it never charging up at 50kW because I suspect you'll find that is down in print as such.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
251 Posts
In fact, thinking about it, bizarrely you might actually have a stronger case for it never charging up at 50kW because I suspect you'll find that is down in print as such.
That is an interesting point, now the weather has gone colder, if you charge with a battery below 27c does the rate get faster or is 50kw just not achievable? Because then you're proving that the vehicle does not do what is stated, and regularly it is far worse than stated.

Cheers.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
That is an interesting point, now the weather has gone colder, if you charge with a battery below 27c does the rate get faster or is 50kw just not achievable? Because then you're proving that the vehicle does not do what is stated, and regularly it is far worse than stated.

Cheers.
50kW is never achievable. 46kW is the highest we've seen. I suspect that's the top charge rate.

The 24kWh version consistently draws the top rate, and that's what we expected. We asked, is it the same, Nissan said yes... we took them at their word.

50kWh in the Leaf or the e-NV200 isn't achievable.

We'll stick with our tack... where the car isn't fit for purpose on longer journeys because of restrictive charging, we'll hire cars, and see Nissan in the small claims court at a later stage.

We've taken various large companies to court over the years, and have always won.

We'd never do anything legally where we didn't have a good chance of winning.
 
1 - 18 of 18 Posts
Top