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Discussion Starter #1
I was recently in the pub with some friends,
As I was leaving and said I was driving home. Someone said something about cost of fuel to with I replied "nah Electric tiz the future"

One of the other folk in the group then launched into a wired anti ev rant, her list included

Paying for parking... Like any car?
Paying to change... Like for petrol?
Paying to get a charger installed... Not necessarily & grant funded.

Then she said something about how transmission of 1kw of electricity takes 3kw of power. (She does have some form of engineering background although not sure what)

I thought it was more interesting than the usual "but cobalt..." argument, but just wondered if transmission really is that inefficient?




Sent using Tapatalk (I'm on my phone so sorry for any auto correct screwups)
 

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I think someone somewhere is mixing up transmission and distribution losses. Transmission loss should be in the order of 2% Distribution loss at 8% sounds plausible for an LV connection.
 

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I think someone somewhere is mixing up transmission and distribution losses. Transmission loss should be in the order of 2% Distribution loss at 8% sounds plausible for an LV connection.
Good point - that was the total of the two. It is still less than the 75% that the OP's "friend" claimed.

As a BEV owner I have to be a bit careful before making claims as it depends on the source of my electricity and the efficiency of my BEV in storing, releasing and converting the electrical energy. It all smacks of the "long tailpipe" argument which has been too well rehearsed by the "don't bother me with facts, my mind is made up" brigade.
 

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How does petrol magically appear in the forecourt. I suspect the cost of the oil well + shipping of crude oil across the ocean + refining + transport to forecourt is quite a “transmission loss” in relation to petrol.
Some ICE advocates get very heated when faced with the lower cost to run advantage of BEV. They should feel happier with the higher cost to own.
Personally I just don’t want to burn fossil fuels and add CO2 to the planet. (House roof charging BEV). Usually stops the rant.
 

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....
Then she said something about how transmission of 1kw of electricity takes 3kw of power. (She does have some form of engineering background although not sure what)
.....
I'm trying to figure out how I could defend such a statement (if I had to!).

I get the impression there is something all convoluted in that statement, but based on some truths that have lost their meaning entirely.

Maybe had in mind the notion of 30% thermal efficiency conversion?

If she was really clever then she could lead you down a path and argue that there is always some phase vector angle where it takes 3kW of reactive power to produce 1kW of real power in that case (e.g. referenced at 70.5deg phase angle, 1kW + 2.83kWAr = 3kWA). In other words, it takes a generator 3kW to produce 1kW at 70deg phase [.... but gets back 2kW!].

... nah .... I don't think she meant that .... just doesn't know ..... :D
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Given the points about cost of parking and charging/fueling both of which are also associated with ICE cars. I took pretty much all of it with a pinch of salt

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I was recently in the pub with some friends,
As I was leaving and said I was driving home. Someone said something about cost of fuel to with I replied "nah Electric tiz the future"


Then she said something about how transmission of 1kw of electricity takes 3kw of power. (She does have some form of engineering background although not sure what)
I imagine she means that to generate and distribute 1kWh of electricity requires circa 3kWh of primary fuel (usually nat gas) at the generating end. Even then state of the art combined cycle gas turbine plants come closer to 50% efficency.

Of course this also ignores wind turbines, nukes, etc and pretends that oil refineries run on unicorn farts......

Andy
 

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This kind of response is so common I expect that almost every EV owner has had something similar at one time or another.

Just yesterday my neighbour asked me about the eNiro I test drove last week... I told him about it and he said... "ah... electric... waste of time!... "batteries cannot be recycled, very expensive and need replacing every 5 years"... "increases your electricity bill hugely".

Then, to cap it all, he said "... nah, petrol is the future. Wind and solar is a complete waste of time. Climate change is fake... doesn't exist".

I have to say that I was shocked at this drivel coming from someone I thought was pretty sensible. He was serious... I did think he might have been winding me up but he isn't that kind of guy. I tried to argue the points but he wasn't at all interested. I just politely said it was nice discussing it with him and walked away. That is all you can do when confronted with such views.
 

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Next time point your not-so-well-informed friend to this thread:
Auke Hoekstra is THE guy in the Netherlands who knows all about electric mobility, renewables and grids. He makes a hobby of debunking FUD articles about EVs and in the linked thread he shows that we need to add 30% to petrol emissions and 24% to diesel emissions. Impressive.

EDIT
This is a better thread since it is the actual article: Producing gasoline and diesel emits more CO2 than we thought
 

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Discussion Starter #15
As much as I claim to be an antisocial git it does happen sometimes .

Although it was a local camera club meet up & not a drunken rager

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I like to ask people whether, if EVs were the only cars available and somebody “invented“ an ICE, would we go to all the trouble of building fuel stations with underground storage tanks, transporting petrol/diesel by road tanker, refining the fuel from crude oil which has been delivered to enormously expensive refineries using pipelines and tankers after extracting from the ground or under the sea using massive drilling rigs etc. Don’t think the idea would catch on somehow.
 

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I like to ask people whether, if EVs were the only cars available and somebody “invented“ an ICE, would we go to all the trouble of building fuel stations with underground storage tanks, transporting petrol/diesel by road tanker, refining the fuel from crude oil which has been delivered to enormously expensive refineries using pipelines and tankers after extracting from the ground or under the sea using massive drilling rigs etc. Don’t think the idea would catch on somehow.
Interestingly, that's sort of what started to happen in the 1920's.
 

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I like to ask people whether, if EVs were the only cars available and somebody “invented“ an ICE, would we go to all the trouble of building fuel stations with underground storage tanks, transporting petrol/diesel by road tanker, refining the fuel from crude oil which has been delivered to enormously expensive refineries using pipelines and tankers after extracting from the ground or under the sea using massive drilling rigs etc. Don’t think the idea would catch on somehow.
Yeah, that's kinda funny, because that's exactly what happened.

The basic problem is that the best way to carry energy around is as a volatile hydrocarbon that can be combusted with the air. It is very energy dense, and you are, in effect, only carrying around a half of the actual fuel ingredients!

If we could convert renewable and nuclear energy, along with CO2 drawn from the air, into synthetic hydrocarbons (and one day we will), the most logical approach would be to carry on with ICE cars again.
 

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Yeah, that's kinda funny, because that's exactly what happened.

The basic problem is that the best way to carry energy around is as a volatile hydrocarbon that can be combusted with the air. It is very energy dense, and you are, in effect, only carrying around a half of the actual fuel ingredients!

If we could convert renewable and nuclear energy, along with CO2 drawn from the air, into synthetic hydrocarbons (and one day we will), the most logical approach would be to carry on with ICE cars again.
Is that before or after everything is powered by hydrogen made from man made nuclear fusion reactors?
 

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Is that before or after everything is powered by hydrogen made from man made nuclear fusion reactors?
It'll come after, as a 'low impact alternative' to the burdensome infrastructure demands of electricity and hydrogen.

It'll be an 'alternatively fuelled vehicle'... namely petrol, instead of common hydrogen or electricity .... and get a £10 discount on VED.
 
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