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Advice needed commuting from Hull to Leeds Zoe 22kw vs Leaf 24kw

4K views 38 replies 20 participants last post by  Siraff 
#1 ·
Hi everyone,

First post so please be gentle ;)

I am going to be commuting from Hull to Leeds for work which is a round trip of about 120 miles on a relatively flat road with only 1 elevated section over the Ouse river.

I am looking at a 2nd hand Nissan Leaf or Renault Zoe but based on pricing from Autotrader and a few other places I think that I could only afford either a 2013 Leaf or older or a 2014 Zoe or older. This means that both the 41kw Zoe and 30kw Leaf would be out of reach. I am considering buying from auction as this should hopefully bring something newer into play but I think it's still unlikely to be enough to put the larger capacity batteries within reach (I have bought my last 4 petrol cars from auction so have a fairly good feel for how auctions work).

Bearing in mind the length of my commute is it realistic to do it in either of the smaller battery capacity models? If so, which would people recommend? I am leaning towards the Leaf as the battery ownership seems to mean that they hold value better. Also I'm really not keen on the battery lease on the Zoe as it means that it takes longer to earn back the cost of the car in fuel savings. I've worked out that the cost of the Leaf could be recouped in 2 years of commuting whereas a similar priced Zoe would probably take over 3 years.

In addition to the above, there is a possibility that my partner may take the car after the first year, she only drives around 5000 miles per year so I know that this will impact on the time to recoup the cost of the car but not sure if this should be factored in to the decision on which car to go for.

I would appreciate any suggestions that people have as to which would be the best to go for, I have already narrowed down to the Leaf or Zoe as I'm not aware that any other electric cars would have sufficient range for the trip I will be making, if this is nor correct then please feel free to set me straight!

Cheers
 
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#2 · (Edited)
Welcome to Speak EV. IMHO 120 miles return would be marginal even for a 30kWh Leaf unless you can recharge at work or nearby when you'd be fine. A 24kWh Leaf might suffice in summer if you can recharge in Leeds and providing it still has good battery capacity. Could you check that at an auction? :cautious: In cold weather range is seriously affected making the 60 miles marginal.
To be honest I'd only consider a 30kWh Leaf (I can't comment on Zoe's, no experience of them) and only if you can recharge in Leeds, otherwise you might run out and you can't carry a spare can of electricity to top up.
If it might help, there are rapid chargers in York that cost 15p per kWh to top up.
One thing to consider with 2013 Leafs is they could be late registered Gen 1 models dating from 2011 which have a more limited range than the Gen 2 Leafs made in 2013. The 2011 Leaf is just a 'Leaf', the Visia, Acenta and Teckna names came in only from the Gen 2 models.
I would suspect Leafs sold at auction would be those that the dealers do not wish to sell on themselves as a Cared4 car so I'd be pretty wary unless you have experience of EVs already and know how to check the battery state.
 
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#5 ·
Hi John, Thanks for the welcome, I probably should have mentioned, I've looked on zapmap and there are a number of charging points in Leeds, I also believe that the organisation I will be working for are going to be installing EV charging points at the site so this would be ideal. There's also a rapid charger at Ferrybridge services I believe which is approx 44 miles from Hull.

Thanks for the info on the Gen 1/2, I have seen a couple of leafs advertised on Autotrader without the trim name and didn't know what they were. Need to keep away from those then as they definitely won't do the trip.

The Leaf became available on Motability in August 2013 and I know that Motability just put their petrol cars into auction when the leases are up so I assume they do the same with their electric cars, I'm also hoping that there may be some PCP returns at the auctions as well. Hopefully this will men tht the cars have been looked after fairly well as they need to be returned.

Welcome, sorry to hear about the long daily commute, having done 100 miles a day for close to years I know how depressing it is!!

Driving an EV would at least make it more bearable, but sadly apart from a Tesla or maybe the 40kWh Zoe no other EV will manage a 120 mile round trip commute. Ignore the 'offical' range estimates of the Leaf/Zoe, my 24kWh Leaf has had a max range of 60 miles the last few months!!

When your wasting 2-3 hrs a day commuting the last thing you want to worry about is charging/range. After a hard days work I cannot imagine anything worse than having to go and find a Ecotricty charger (providing it works), than spending £5 to wait another 30 minutes of charging.

Why not use your partner's car and get her an EV. 5000 miles a year is perfect usage pattern for a used Leaf/Zoe.
Hi Gzoom, Thanks, the commute may well only be a short term thing for 1 year as I may be able to move offices which will reduce the commute significantly. Hence why my partner might be taking the car after the 1st year. The issue with that is we are looking to maximise savings whilst I am in Leeds so it makes sense for me to use the EV to do this if the range is enough.

I know that the NEDC figures quoted for the Leaf and Zoe are optimistic to say the least, at a range of 60 miles that might get me to Ferrybridge and then a quick stop and charge to get on to Leeds but that would add at least 30 mins to the trip I believe?

What is the range on the 24kw in the summer as I could maybe use the Leaf during the summr and then swap cars with my partner during the winter and could still make a saving albeit not as much as using it year round.

Thanks for the info guys, much appreciated.

Cheers
 
#3 ·
Welcome, sorry to hear about the long daily commute, having done 100 miles a day for close to years I know how depressing it is!!

Driving an EV would at least make it more bearable, but sadly apart from a Tesla or maybe the 40kWh Zoe no other EV will manage a 120 mile round trip commute. Ignore the 'offical' range estimates of the Leaf/Zoe, my 24kWh Leaf has had a max range of 60 miles the last few months!!

When your wasting 2-3 hrs a day commuting the last thing you want to worry about is charging/range. After a hard days work I cannot imagine anything worse than having to go and find a Ecotricty charger (providing it works), than spending £5 to wait another 30 minutes of charging.

Why not use your partner's car and get her an EV. 5000 miles a year is perfect usage pattern for a used Leaf/Zoe.
 
#4 ·
Do you have charging at work?

If you don't I would not get either car unless you have a Rapid charger on route and want to add 30 mins to your daily commute.

If you do then both cars will cope fairly easily with 60 miles, in very/very bad weather you might be cutting it close.
 
#7 ·
Without the ability to charge all day at work an older BEV is not the car for this trip. Even a 30 minute stop at a Rapid in any old generation car won't give enough range plus a margin for a 120 miles round trip. And that is if that charger is precisely at the 60 mile mark. Even then I wouldn't risk it. Lets say that you arrive exactly 60 miles from home at a Rapid and have 20% left. In itself that's debatable. That charger will take you back to 80% in 30 minutes. But that will only be just about enough to safely drive 60 miles again without taking it to empty. In any case, with a commute of that distance the tendency is to drive quickly as time is also of the essence. And that will drastically reduce range, especially in Winter.

With the ability to charge all day at work, that could provide enough to get home safely if you can get back to a 100% charge, but tbh this commute distance is far from ideal using older BEVs. I would advise you to re-think.
 
#8 ·
I think you have to consider whether you want to be stopping for charging on your route , adding time to what is already a lengthy journey - your cost savings stopping at an ecotricity rapid almost daily will be nil, you might as well buy a small diesel hatchback. If your company is installing charge point they will need to be 3.3kw - if there are several EVs in the office car park in a years time you may only the half a day on the charger.

Bear in mind a 24kW leaf is only 21kW usuable capacity when new; with age degradation of the battery you might be buying something with 18-19kW usable capacity, in which case in the depths of winter you'll be lucky to see 55 miles with heater on.

You could consider a hybrid like the Prius or maybe a newer Auris hatchback - limited electric range but at least you wont have to stop for charging , and you wont have to drive at 60mph on the motorway to eek out the charge,
 
#9 ·
Range issues aside, I would consider a brand new car (Leaf 30kW) on a 24 months PCP. If you are saving more than £10 per day on the daily commute, and no road tax of course, that saving would be near enough covered. The car would be new, so maintenance would be minimal and you would have all the other benefits like roadside assistance.

Depends how you view a saving and whether the eco factor is important to you.​
 
#12 ·
Good point but at 30kmiles in the first year it'd be a high monthly payment - I suppose if you took a 3 year deal at 15k pa then you'd have ca £245 monthly payments, but you'd have to rely on the wife using it for yr 2 and 3.
A new 30kW Accenta would do the 60 miles commute easily in all weathers, free charge in work, or a blast on a rapid at the local Nissan dealer from time to time would get you necessary charge to get home.
 
#10 ·
Unless you have totally reliable charging at work don't buy any of these vehicles. Something will go wrong at some point and you'll end up stranded. A gen1 leaf is no good for this now in winter, an early gen2 will be good for the next 1 or 2 winters and then also no good.

You can get a 30kwh leaf on a 2 year PCP for less than your fuel would cost in a ~40mpg car, might be worth thinking about. You have no risk on residuals etc, and if you don't get on with it after 2 years, walk away.

An Ampera would be a good solution, the first 30-40 miles would be electric, if you can charge at work then the first 30-40 miles home would also be electric.

A BMW i3 REX would also be a good solution, in the depths of winter if your workplace charging fails, you can just burn a bit of petrol to get home.
 
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#13 ·
The only cars that will do the return journey are the new Zoe, the i3 REX, and maybe the Ioniq. If you don't have charging at work, the 30kWh Leaf is the only remaining choice.

On paper, the old Zoe (and probably the Leaf) would make the journey. But on the coldest days you'd need a full charge each way. If you can't charge at work then that means more than one session on a rapid charger, as one session would only get you to 80-85%. So that's £12/day instead of £6.

Factoring in the cost of motorway charging, there shouldn't be much (if any) difference in price between the 30kWh Leaf and the Zoe ZE40. The Zoe will get you home quicker as you won't need to use the rapid chargers.

I'd be enquiring about getting a charge point fitted at work TBH. It'll save you a significant amount each year. I'd be comfortable doing 60 miles each way in my Zoe even on cold days provided I had a full charge for each leg of the journey.
 
#14 ·
Unless you have totally reliable charging at work don't buy any of these vehicles.
This probably sums up the collective experience of Leaf/Zoe owners on here when you talking about a regular 130 miles commute. DON'T count on public charging, when I was trying to use public chargers the failure rate was close to 50%, at work charging might be ok, but what if someone else at work also gets an EV and you turn up to find the charge point been used???

Once you've been in the situation of been in the middle of no where, state of charge down to 5%, and the prospect of having to be towed due to running out of charge your understand why @Edd Beesley advice is 100% spot on....Expect your not talking about a one of trip but a daily commute.

As much as I love everyone to drive EVs, 120 mile commute with current EVs (Tesla aside) is a simple no-go, save your self the headache, stress, and time. Stick with combustion cars for another 12 months and than see what the market is like :).
 
#15 ·
As much as I love everyone to drive EVs, 120 mile commute with current EVs (Tesla aside) is a simple no-go, save your self the headache, stress, and time. Stick with combustion cars for another 12 months and than see what the market is like
No - that 12 months has already passed. Back then your only option would have been an i3 REx, but now this could be done easily by a ZOE ZE40, and with a bit of care by an i3 94Ah or an IONIQ. In the worst case, with the latter two, the OP would have to swap to an ICE for a month mid-winter.
 
#18 ·
My tuppenceworth:
* you will need to charge at Leeds during your working day using virtually any EV except ZE40 or Tesla.
* is charging at Leeds easy for you? are there chargepoints near your work? check Plugshare and ZapMap to check that these are operational and not liable to ICEing or being full all the time? How much will charging at Leeds cost you per day? Even if the chargers themselves are free, are they sited in car parks where it is free to park/charge? How serious are your work about installing chargers in the work car park? What is the timescale for this and can you be fairly sure the timescale won't slip?
* if the answers to all of the above are reassuring, then either Zoe22 or Leaf24 will be adequate if you drive at 60mph and leave home with 100% battery.

If you can be sure of a cost-effective and reliable charge at both Hull and Leeds ends, then go for it, get a 22-24kwh car, and reap the savings. If you cannot be sure of charging at Leeds, then, to be honest, there are far more drawbacks as you would be tied in to sitting at a rapid charger every evening and this would quickly become a major pain in the arse, as well as potentially costing more money than charging slowly at Leeds.

Edit: assuming you work in Leeds City Centre, I'd also be keen to know where in Hull you are and how far your trip is. Presumably 60 miles is a rounded number? If you're in Hessle, it's 55 miles which is easy. If you're in Hedon, it's 65 miles which is pushing the winter limit of a 24kwh Leaf's range.
 
#19 ·
Thanks for the info everyone, I would just like to clear up a few things if possible?

So it seems that the 24kwh Leaf or 22 Kwh Zoe are not feasible unless I am possibly willing to buy as new a generation as possible and only use it during summer.

I've looked quickly into PCP already and even assuming reduced mileage in year 2 and or 3 the best deal I have been able to find is approx 3k per annum accounting for initial deposit and 12 monthly payments.

Based on 35mpg and £1.20/l I expect my annual petrol cost in year 1 to be approx £3800. I have also worked out the expected cost for charging in year 1 and expect this to be between £1000 and £1500 which is why I would much rather own outright than go for PCP. Even owning and only using during summer would come out cheaper than a PCP over 2 years as the annual cost for this would be approx £2000-£3000 versus £3000 for the PCP

I have checked Zapmap and there are at least 5 charging points within 2 miles of my place of work, I haven't been able to confirm on charging points at work yet but this would be the best option. There are a number of chargers at a park and ride less than 3 miles from my workplace so this may be a good option.

I seem to have had different answers from different people regarding the feasibility of this so I'm a little confused. I am going to discount the zoe as the battery hire was always off putting for me so in terms of the leaf, would a newer gen 24kwh leaf do the trip on way given that there seems to be a number of charging facilities within reasonable walking distance of my workplace?

If so, would it do the trip one way all year round or should I expect to use an ICE for 3-6 months of the year?

Does it cost to use the 3 or 7kw chargers in public places? If so how much?
 
#23 ·
There are a number of chargers at a park and ride less than 3 miles from my workplace so this may be a good option.

I seem to have had different answers from different people regarding the feasibility of this so I'm a little confused.
Public charging is fine when your on holiday, shopping, generally have time to kill/not that bothered if charger not working.

But for your daily routine of getting to/from work when time is precious, it's really not something you want to rely on. Even if you find public charging 2 mile away from work, do you want to spend 30 mintues walking to work everyday after a 60 mile drive??

I think if you look at everyone's advice we are all saying the same thing......Unless you can guarantee 100% day in day out access to a charging point at work your options for an EV is pretty limited. I don't know what your work place parking is like, I'm just glad to get parking let alone parking in the same spot every day!!

If you think you can make it work using public chargers, by all means give it a go. Nissan do 4 day test drives, so maybe get a Leaf out on a Monday and see just how feasible it is to do the commute in it using pubic charging??
 
#21 ·
A 24kWh Leaf should do the trip one way at 60mph provided you leave home with a full charge and can recharge to full for the journey home. You might find on one or two occasions, in really bad weather, that you have to top up at the services.

The 22kWh Zoe, same situation as above but slightly less chance of needing a top-up.

The 30kWh Leaf, as above, but zero chance of needing an additional top-up and you could drive at 70 comfortably.

The 94ah i3 and Hyundai Ioniq will make the return journey most days if driven carefully. There might be a few days a year where you need to top up.

The Zoe ZE40 will do the return journey all year round without needing a recharge in Leeds. If you're spending anything close to the amount these cost then buy one over anything else; it'll be worth it to not have the hassle of finding a public charger every day.
 
#25 ·
@McPhee has set out succinctly what everyone else is saying. No confusion needed. The key here is being able to charge reliably every day in Leeds, back up to 100%, whilst you are at work. If that isn't possible due to the obvious unreliability of public charging then walk away from this idea.

A while ago there was a similar situation discussed in here. Seemingly impossible due to employment resistance to fit a charger despite the driver covering all costs. I suggested that they research ordinary contract parking solutions and approach them to see if they could offer daily parking with charging included. After a while they found a private individual who offered their drive to commuters for a fee. That person was willing to allow a granny lead from their garage and solved his problems. They even allowed him to park his bike in the garage overnight for that 'last mile' to work.
Thanks for the clarification both. I had already thought about the possibility of lockup/garage/driveway rental and it would certainly help with removing reliance on public chargers, it still looks as though the 30KW leaf or the ZE40 would be the safer choice in terms of range so I think I will probably have to redo my sums and see if I can stretch to either of these. Thanks everyone for all of your advice.
 
#22 ·
@McPhee has set out succinctly what everyone else is saying. No confusion needed. The key here is being able to charge reliably every day in Leeds, back up to 100%, whilst you are at work. If that isn't possible due to the obvious unreliability of public charging then walk away from this idea.

A while ago there was a similar situation discussed in here. Seemingly impossible due to employment resistance to fit a charger despite the driver covering all costs. I suggested that they research ordinary contract parking solutions and approach them to see if they could offer daily parking with charging included. After a while they found a private individual who offered their drive to commuters for a fee. That person was willing to allow a granny lead from their garage and solved his problems. They even allowed him to park his bike in the garage overnight for that 'last mile' to work.
 
#24 ·
I wouldn't even think about this in a 24kWh Leaf even if I could charge at work. You would basically have to drive with the heater off on the worst days of winter. Add in a bit of battery degradation and you might even struggle to complete one leg of the commute.

A 30kWh Leaf would be OK if you could charge at work most days. If for some reason you couldn't get plugged in then it's approximately 80 miles from Hull > Leeds > Ferrybridge Services which would give you the option of topping up on the way home. This would very quickly get annoying if you had to do it very often though. Plus it's £6 a go.

I hate to say it but my advice would be to run a small second hand diesel car. The current range of second hand EVs do not meet your requirements.
 
#27 ·
I've had a look for you - Woodhouse Lane car park in northern Leeds seems your best bet. It has 10 EV parking spaces and it is free to charge. The car park apparently offers free EV charging if you get an EV driver pass in advance from Leeds council - but you would need to check that you are eligible for this as a non Leeds resident. If this is near your work then I think this is your best bet - but from the look of Plugshare app, there is an issue with petrol cars parking in EV bays here and rendering them unusable. You might need to complain to the council if this proves to be a significant problem.

I own a 2013 24kwh Leaf Acenta and I might (just might) consider selling it if this meets your needs. I have friends in Hull so could deliver there, and would be happy to facilitate a test drive to/from Leeds, and demonstrate the use of CYC and Ecotricity charging posts, if this is something that would interest you. I wasn't planning on selling but had vaguely considered upgrading to a longer range EV one day. PM me with a conditional offer if this is of any interest.
 
#28 ·
I'd echo the sentiment that it's probably better to wait. The 30kWh Leaf isn't offering you any tangible benefit over the 24kWh; you're still dependent on public charging, you're just marginally less likely to wind up getting a lift home on a flatbed truck.

The Zoe ZE40 is ideal. But lack of competition and strong sales on the continent means there aren't any good offers on that car at present. You're looking at ~£4k per annum to lease one.

A few months from now supply will hopefully have caught up with demand on the Zoe and Ioniq, and there may be competitive versions of the Leaf and i3 on the market. Biding your time could mean getting a car that actually meets your needs for a price you are happy to pay.
 
#29 ·
To add a little anecdote, I travel to Birmingham regularly. There's some on-street charging bays that I regularly use as they're free. A few weeks ago, all of them were taken. Road works meant my satnav was fairly useless for finding other chargers. I tried three nearby carparks, all either in use, "ICE'd", or broken. It took me nearly an hour to find somewhere reasonably priced with a working, vacant charger. Thankfully, Birmingham is only 45 miles away so I had plenty of range.

Public chargers are great, until they throw a curve ball.
 
#30 · (Edited)
The problem is the difference between what some people can achieve in an EV and what you would be guaranteed to achieve in your EV. I think the battery warranty on a leaf only kicks in if the capacity falls to below 70pc of new? If so then this changes guaranteed range a lot.

The distances quoted above are achievable by others, but your particular journey in your particular car with your battery deg, might be less feasible than other peoples experience would indicate.

For my money you would be pushing your luck with some of the figures quoted above. If you can make it work then excellent.
 
#31 ·
I have a 2015 Zoe (22 kW usable) and drive 100 miles (50 each way) every week throughout the year. I do this journey on a single charge at home in the warmer months when I can get at least 5 miles per kWh (a range of at least 110 miles). By driving at no more than 50 mph I managed just over 100 miles on a single charge at the end of the year in 2015. When the temperature falls here in the south to 0-3 C, I don't get much more than 3.5 miles per kWh (range about 75 miles).

You will be able to drive one way on your journey with confidence if you are not a boy racer, but if you don't have access to a reliable charge point at your work place, don't consider either the older spec Leaf or Zoe. The new 41 kW Zoe will do your out and return journey with ease on a single home charge. Others may (or may not) be so confident about the new Leaf.
 
#34 ·
It will but its marginal. Perhaps some 30kWh Leafs are better than others if you can't manage it!
If you have 28kWh available to use and can achieve 5 miles per kWh, just do the maths, you'll make it. Whether you'd want to risk running close to turtle is another matter. Trouble is in the winter getting 5m/kWh isn't easy (I'm presently only getting 4.9) whereas in summer exceeding 5m/kWh isn't really hard to do unless you drive it like a formula one car.
Presently my Leaf is dead on 50% charge and its done 60 miles since full so I would expect it to do another 60 until empty.
 
#33 ·
Look at a second hand Toyota Yaris Hybrid. You should get 60mpg plus on such a journey. It drives like an EV (a high torque automatic), but with noise at high powers. If you like the feel of the car (you might not like automatics after all!) you will be well placed for an EV in a year or 3. Also zero road tax and low-ish insurance. Make sure it has cruise control, not all have it. Heated seats are also a useful option - heater can be sluggish in the first 5 miles or so.
 
#38 ·
Hi all,

Thanks for all the replies and advice, just a quick update now that the decision has been made. We ended up going for a brand new 30kwh Tekna on PCP as it worked out over £2000 cheaper over the 2 year term than buying a used 24kwh!

After a lot of backwards and forwards between buying used or PCPing new we eventually settled on the PCP for 2 reasons really, the cost was one of them but the other was the almost complete elimination of my partner's range anxiety. (I did a trial run from Hull to Leeds on Friday for a training day and I think she was dreading getting a call from me stranded somewhere on the M62 having run out of battery!!)

We take delivery in the next fortnight and are really looking forward to it. I am no petrolhead by any means but having done the 4 day test drive this week I have to say the leaf is an awesome car and I didn't want to go back to my gas guzzling ICE when it went back to the dealer!

I'm sure I will find loads of stupid questions to ask the boffins on here once I actually get my hands on the car but enough from me for now. Thanks once again everyone for your advice and for the guy who mentioned PCP up-thread (I forget who) you were spot on with your recommendation so additional thanks for that. Looking forward to joining the EV revolution and hope to see you all around. Cheers.
 
#39 ·
Buy two cheap ion/i-miev/etc (or early Leafs if you can find them cheaper or any mix). Leave one at each end and charging. Hammer them as mercilessly as you like.
About £10k for the pair, two to sell at the end with half the added mileage each so a big percentage of money back, no worry about range and use as much heater as you like.
 
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