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Discussion Starter #1
Hi everyone,
I'm looking at new job and it will be a 50 mile to 70 mile trip each way M54 Cosford to Gaydon. I'm sure the 30kWh 2017 version could handle the 100mile round drip but what about the 140mile trip would that be pushing it?

Obviously it will be pretty much all motorway driving and I don't mind slotting in behind an artic.

Any help would be appreciated with the real world range.

Thanks
 

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Leaf30 can't. Not unless you charge it fully at destination. Even Leaf40 might not make it
The best I've achieved is 105 miles in summer and 90 in winter. You could probably get more if you are okay with daily turtle mode and excessive strain on battery.

Lowest I've pushed Leaf is 8%.

- Leaf 30 kWh
Sent from mobile phone so please mind the typos
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Morning guys,
thanks for the info yes I must admit a model 3 is looking the best option. I did look at model S but I don't need such a big car and a good used S is the same price as a M3. So its a no brainer on that front.

I initially considered getting a 30kWh leaf and keeping my Golf R but the M3 would make the R pretty much redundant.

Thanks again :)
 

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Morning guys,
thanks for the info yes I must admit a model 3 is looking the best option. I did look at model S but I don't need such a big car and a good used S is the same price as a M3. So its a no brainer on that front.

I initially considered getting a 30kWh leaf and keeping my Golf R but the M3 would make the R pretty much redundant.

Thanks again :)
The last thing you need when starting a new job is the extra worry of range anxiety, you would be wise to go for a 3.
Cheers, Tony.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Thanks Tony,
I didn't actually realise the range was so small on lots of EV's. You see the range of 168 and assume the best when in reality its much much worse.

You are right about the 3 it does seem to be the very best option, performance, tech and range.

many thanks
 

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Leaf 40 is pushing it unless there is work place charging. If you had guaranteed workplace charging then lots of different EVs would be workable.

Tesla Model 3 is probably the best all rounder right now if you have the money for one.
 

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My rule of thumb to avoid relying on charging en-route is that an EV's actual achievable summer range (not NEDC/WLTP fantasy figures) should be at least twice that of the commute it's required to regularly do.

This allows for the combination of:

1) Reduced range in winter and with heater use.
2) Unexpected diversions/delays due to road/traffic problems especially in winter. (where you might get stuck in stationary traffic having to run the heater to keep warm etc)
3) Unanticipated errands on the way home.
4) Unanticipated headwinds or very wet weather, which can eat into range a lot.
5) Battery degradation over time. (!)
6) Avoiding range anxiety due to any of the above.

Buying an EV whose range under ideal conditions is only a little bit more than the commute length is simply asking for trouble. Apart from the anxiety it causes, all it takes is higher winter consumption and/or battery degradation over time before you find yourself unable to make your journey without charging. I speak from first hand experience...

If an EV someone is looking at can't do double their commute length then they either have an unusually long commute or they're buying the wrong car!

Another important thing to keep in mind if your commute is long enough that you'll have to charge for the return leg is that you can't count on a 100% charge for the return leg. It takes too long on a rapid charger so you need to use 80% of the nominal range figure for any legs of the journey that occur after charging. This can really eat into any assumptions about how far the car can go. The only exception would be work place charging that allows you to get to 100% during the day, however on a very long commute this may not be possible anyway.
 

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If an EV someone is looking at can't do double their commute length then they either have an unusually long commute or they're buying the wrong car!
I think that's maybe a little pessimistic, particularly with longer range EVs/commutes but with a regular 100 mile round trip I'd certainly want an EV that could very comfortably do 150 miles even in less than ideal conditions.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Yes you are absolutely correct on the range to commute. I will probably need the extended range M3 to be safe just watched a carwow range video and it managed 269miles. Interestingly the Kia Nero did 255 mile which is also very impressive for a 35k car. The 62k leaf managed 208miles

thanks again everyone
 

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I think that's maybe a little pessimistic, particularly with longer range EVs/commutes but with a regular 100 mile round trip I'd certainly want an EV that could very comfortably do 150 miles even in less than ideal conditions.
I think you're forgetting about battery degradation. Even if the car can manage 150 miles comfortably with a brand new battery, a SoH of 80% after many years would reduce that to 120 miles. Now take off another 20% for losses in winter (heating, wet roads, thicker air etc, more like 40% without a heat pump) and you're at 100 miles, and suddenly your 150 mile car cannot make the 100 mile commute with anything to spare in winter after a few years of battery degradation.

Given that most EV's don't warranty the battery for anything more than 70% SoC this is something that needs serious consideration on any car you plan to keep a long time. A car that can do your commute today comfortably may not after many years of degradation, so make sure the car can still comfortably provide the range you need after the battery has degraded close to the warranty point.

A 50% margin simply isn't enough IMHO, hence my 2x rule of thumb which would see the car still useful and capable of completing the commute despite worst case driving scenarios (winter, heater, wet/windy, diversions) and significant battery degradation.

Yes, a 2x rule of thumb rules out a lot of EV's on the market for many peoples commutes, but that's kind of my point - lets be realistic and don't try to make an EV do more than it's capable of doing as it ages and loses range. Again I'm speaking from first hand experience and lessons learned.

Another reason to go 2x is Depth of Discharge. If you have to routinely discharge the car to a low SoC like 20% it will degrade the battery at a far faster rate than if you can make the same journey only discharging to 50%. Not only that, a larger battery means less cycles for the same distance covered. A larger battery is more than just range per charge, it's also about making the battery last many more years than a small battery will.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I think you're forgetting about battery degradation. Even if the car can manage 150 miles comfortably with a brand new battery, a SoH of 80% after many years would reduce that to 120 miles. Now take off another 20% for losses in winter (heating, wet roads, thicker air etc, more like 40% without a heat pump) and you're at 100 miles, and suddenly your 150 mile car cannot make the 100 mile commute with anything to spare in winter after a few years of battery degradation.

Given that most EV's don't warranty the battery for anything more than 70% SoC this is something that needs serious consideration on any car you plan to keep a long time. A car that can do your commute today comfortably may not after many years of degradation, so make sure the car can still comfortably provide the range you need after the battery has degraded close to the warranty point.

A 50% margin simply isn't enough IMHO, hence my 2x rule of thumb which would see the car still useful and capable of completing the commute despite worst case driving scenarios (winter, heater, wet/windy, diversions) and significant battery degradation.

Yes, a 2x rule of thumb rules out a lot of EV's on the market for many peoples commutes, but that's kind of my point - lets be realistic and don't try to make an EV do more than it's capable of doing as it ages and loses range. Again I'm speaking from first hand experience and lessons learned.

Another reason to go 2x is Depth of Discharge. If you have to routinely discharge the car to a low SoC like 20% it will degrade the battery at a far faster rate than if you can make the same journey only discharging to 50%. Not only that, a larger battery means less cycles for the same distance covered. A larger battery is more than just range per charge, it's also about making the battery last many more years than a small battery will.
Hi Simon,
thank you very much for the explanation that's very helpful indeed. I agree completely hopefully my commute will be 100 miles per day so that rules many vehicles out the odd day when I need to do more I can use a conventional vehicle.

So its pushing it on a standard M3 but a might S60 be okay but a S75 easily

M3 long range £47k

S75 2016-2017 used £36k (£38k from tesla) with 50k on

S70D 2015 used £36K 32k on clock

I suppose I could keep the S for a year or two then buy a model 3 when they filter into the used market.

thanks again
 

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Could perhaps start a thread in the Tesla section. My thoughts, having gone from a Leaf 24 to a Model 3 SR+:

Bear efficiency in mind. Many people have been finding that the 3LR isn't as much further ranged as they'd been hoping over the SR+ because the SR+ is more efficient (240kg lighter, single motor). In simple terms the LR should be +50% range because it's +50% battery size, but it's more like +33% in the real world.

Model 3s generally are rather more efficient than Model S, and an SR+ is likely to be very close to if not greather than the range of an S75D, especially once you take a few years battery degradation into account on the S75D. Model 3 also has new AP hardware and faster charging than S75D - those were among my reasons for choosing model 3 over a used S (which for a long time I'd preferred).

With the SR+ a 70 mile each way commute (ie two cold starts) could be getting a bit close to the limit in the depths of winter, depending on the types of roads, your driving, etc. For that reason, and if you're looking at buying the car yourself (rather than leasing) and wanting to keep it a longer time then the LR is probably the better choice in your case - with the SR+ you might be pushing the battery to 100% rather too often. For 50 mile each way I'd not hesitate on the SR+.

The Model 3 drives in a different league to the Leaf, and to many cars that I've had or driven. I find it epically entertaining personally, but many "petrolheads" decry it as "boring" - largely without having driven one. I will preface this by saying that I've not driven a Golf R specifically, but... The Model 3 chassis is extraordinarily capable. Of course, physics is very much on its side thanks to the low centre of gravity and placement of the vast majority of the weight inside the wheelbase (no heavy engine hanging out the front, etc) and the suspension is extremely good - it delivers immense grip and instantaneous responsiveness and performance - no lagging turbos, waiting for downshifts, etc. Ultimately it's a matter of what you enjoy about driving and with a Golf R I'm sure you have clear ideas what that is - you won't get the mechanical symphony of a good ICE sports car, but you will get a car that allows you to enjoy the road in a purer way (think go-kart - no gears, blank out the noise, just concentrate on the apexes, your line, the grip. In the model 3 you can even hear the tyres load up as you lean on them in a way that's pretty much always hidden in an ICE). The model 3 is rewarding and fun, if not necessarily in the exact same way as an ICE. Whether you would find it a satisfying replacement for the Golf R (rather than a complement to it as the Leaf would be) would be down to you, but I recommend a test drive :)

The model S is nothing like as engaging as a back-road blaster. It is, however, probably a better motorway cruiser in terms of ride and noise, and since many of your miles are that then that might be a consideration.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Hi i-s,
thank you for the explanation about the M3 thats very interesting. I was rather concerned about the bump in price £38k to £47k ouch. I really do love my R I went for the DSG because I'm lazy but the cost of driving 100 miles per day will be prohibitive probably £60+ per week. I have driven a S and my friend has one I like it but hopefully no one flames me it reminds me of a Mercedes E class which I had for a fortnight. The (Tesla S) are just too darn big for me, like a boat but a really comfy fast boat, something that big should not move that quick :)

Having read all the info on the M3 and watched the teardown the thing is a work of art.
 

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Sounds about right, I found the S has a very similar on the road feel to our Lexus GS, so comparisons to an E class are entirely unsurprising. The 3 is certainly a much tauter car, but I find it much more comfortable than M-Sport BMWs. I think it's a brilliant balancing act for a daily driver - there will always be those who want it to be more one way or another, but it puts a smile on my face daily and bizarrely makes me relish my commute!
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Sounds about right, I found the S has a very similar on the road feel to our Lexus GS, so comparisons to an E class are entirely unsurprising. The 3 is certainly a much tauter car, but I find it much more comfortable than M-Sport BMWs. I think it's a brilliant balancing act for a daily driver - there will always be those who want it to be more one way or another, but it puts a smile on my face daily and bizarrely makes me relish my commute!
I agree about the 3 series we have a 335D the suspension is not as hard as my R but the seats feel about a thick as the leather on them and you feel like you are sitting on the ground. Nice gearbox for a 8 speed slushbox auto though.

Do you have the standard autopilot is it quite good? I do like the adaptive cruise on mine especially in traffic jams.
 

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Yes, standard AP.

In traffic queues it's outstandingly good.

Out on open motorways/A-roads it's less good - it still has occasional phantom braking events, and in that respect is less polished than our Lexus or a VW Touran rental that i had a while back in the TACC function. However, it is much more aware of things around it than those systems, and it is improving continuously - unlike any other car I've had where the faults are just things you choose to live with or not I am entirely confident that TACC/AP will improve on the Model 3. They already have improved significantly since we got the car in august, and more to come. This is an area where the model 3 will prove better over time than a used S that might be AP2. AP3 development has already forked from AP2 (eg AP3 recognises and displays traffic cones, AP2 does not).
 
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