Speak EV - Electric Car Forums banner

1 - 20 of 130 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
The wife's Peugeot 207 has written itself off so she's in the market for a new car - not yet decided on dinosaur-juice or EV, or new or used, just investigating the options at the moment.

We went for a test drive of a Zoe at a Renault dealer and liked the car, but after talking to the sales man the whole battery leasing thing sounds clear as mud to me. According to him:

* Batteries cost about £6000 (i.e. buying the battery outright adds about £6k to the cost of the car and replacing a dead battery would be about £6k)
* The battery warranty is 4 years.
* A battery lease is £110/month (unlimited mileage).
* The whole point of leasing a battery is so you don't have a crippling £6k bill if the battery dies.
* There's no option to buy a leased battery at any point - you're stuck paying the £110/month bill for the life of the car.
* Renault are withdrawing the option of buying a battery outright and the new model will only come with leased batteries.

None of this makes much sense to me.

If the battery comes with a 4 year warranty, then that means we only need to worry about it dieing after 4 years. But the lease will have cost over £6000 in under 5 years, so it seems to make little financial sense to lease instead of buy. The Renault website actually says the warranty is 8 years, not the 4 that we were told by the sales man, and if that's true it makes the lease even more of a waste of money.

Also, with no option to buy out the lease, you're left with the prospect of having to fork out £110/month even when the car is ancient. As someone who generally runs their car until it breaks in a way that is uneconomic to repair, this doesn't sit well with me because it means that at some point you're forced to throw away a perfectly good (albeit old) car just because its not worth paying the battery lease.

He also said that used Zoes are almost universally leased batteries, and for me the prospect of Renault withdrawing the option to buy the battery outright on new cars sounds bonkers. The whole concept of battery leasing seems to make the whole thing expensive and shorten the life of the car - its doing quite a good job of convincing us to buy another petrol car instead of an EV.

Can anyone comment on how this works and whether we have been given accurate information? (In case it matters, we're considering the ZE40 battery).

Thanks.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
420 Posts
What of that lot is wrong, though? I think that's a fair summary; I think the main point of the battery lease is to make the list price of the car £6k cheaper than it would otherwise be, and if you only intend to keep the car for as long as the three year PCP lasts, as most people will, then the lease makes more sense, especially with the extras like breakdown cover.

If keeping it for longer, or buying one secondhand, then yes it all gets a bit complicated, which is why the battery owned ones are like hen's teeth.

With ours we have the impending decision to make as we didn't intend to keep ours longer than the three year PCP, but as nothing obvious has come along in the same price range to replace it we are now thinking about doing so, but the battery lease makes it a far from straightforward decision.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
78 Posts
I agree, unless you are a PCP customer who intents to jack in the vehicle after the 3 year deal expires, the battery rental model only serves to line RCI / Renault's pockets and at this stage, is hindering EV take up. The Twizy for example would sell far better without the battery rental. There are also instances where early adopters of the Renault Fluence ZE have less than 75% battery capacity yet have not honoured their promise to replace the battery.
Having no way of buying out the remainder of the battery lease and being forever "taxed" on one vital part of a car you dont own, yet the rest of the car you do own, is plain rubbish.
Just like renting a radio or a television years ago, I hope this rental madness is banished. I think if PCP didn't exist, then neither would their battery rental scheme.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
941 Posts
What of that lot is wrong, though?
  • The battery warranty is not 4 years, it's 8 years
  • There is little indication that Renault are withdrawing the option to buy a battery owned version. We know from the Germany pricing that both options will be offered. Quite why they haven't withdrawn the battery lease version is beyond me personally...
Can anyone comment on how this works and whether we have been given accurate information?
OP, I am firmly in the battery owned camp. The important thing to consider is not the difference in purchase price, but difference in depreciation costs. So far, all data indicates it is much cheaper to buy a battery owned car than a battery lease car, since the battery owned cars have seen little in the way of depreciation.

Having said that, I would only consider a used battery owned model at the moment, and only one that is well priced (<£16k ideally). That's because the current model is the most expensive it has ever been (~£19k), and the new model is out next year, and based on the pricing of other hatchback EVs coming to the market, it will likely be only around the £25K mark. I would be more tempted by the Corsa-e though personally....

I agree, unless you are a PCP customer who intents to jack in the vehicle after the 3 year deal expires
Except if you had gone for the battery owned model on PCP, you may have been paying more over the term, but would have recouped much of that cost back at the end of the deal in the form of positive equity, since the GFV was grossly underestimated. It would have still turned out to be cheaper than a lease model overall.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
941 Posts
Actually, looking at the current offers, the battery owned Zoe can be had for the same monthly cost as a £69 battery lease model for only an extra £400 more in the upfront payment...


This remains even when you apply the greater level of discounts to both models.
 

·
Co-author of CanZE. Q210 nov 2013
Joined
·
4,211 Posts
This subject has come up quite a few times and it's always a good one to have the thread rage on for quite a while. My take
  • no, Renault is not moving to rent only, quite the opposite. In the past it was rent only. now there is choice
  • choice is good. For one, rent is a huge silly no no, for others it's the opposite. I don't care a toss who is in what camp, everybody's situation (financial, experience, fear, PCP-or-buy, etc) is different. I never understood why people have been p***ing on choice / on others choosing different than they do themselves. Do your own due diligence.
  • the point of renting is not only a protection against a suddenly knackered battery (there is the warranty you know). While closely related it is to take away the degradation fear (one often played by the anti-EV crowd). I admit that was one that drew me to the ZOE with back then only te rent option, as all my phone and laptop batteries died in two years. Oh my innocence about car batteries 6 years ago.........
  • most of all, battery rent makes the car a lot cheaper up front
I don't find it clear as mud at all. Though as argued above, you've been fed some nonsense and that doesn't help at all. I am actually with @freddym on this one!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
10,030 Posts
Let's not go back around this. If you want a battery owned Zoe, just buy one. There are some new and pre-reg available on Carwow. (Or order an eCorsa/e208 if you prefer a non-Renault EV).

Personally (like many buyers) I am very happy with battery lease, but will average less than 7K miles a year over the 3 years. Due to low price I was able to buy car for cash.

Each to their own...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
188 Posts
What of that lot is wrong, though? I think that's a fair summary; I think the main point of the battery lease is to make the list price of the car £6k cheaper than it would otherwise be, and if you only intend to keep the car for as long as the three year PCP lasts, as most people will, then the lease makes more sense, especially with the extras like breakdown cover.

If keeping it for longer, or buying one secondhand, then yes it all gets a bit complicated, which is why the battery owned ones are like hen's teeth.

With ours we have the impending decision to make as we didn't intend to keep ours longer than the three year PCP, but as nothing obvious has come along in the same price range to replace it we are now thinking about doing so, but the battery lease makes it a far from straightforward decision.
no lease makes sense, better off BUYING the car on PCP and selling it off. Zoe's ze40 with battery ownership were being sold for 16-17k 3 years ago, today they sell used FOR THE SAME. show me how leasing a zoe with battery rental in 2016 for 3 years would be a better deal than that?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
188 Posts
i dont get the point of battery lease at all.

When you buy the battery you also have 8 year warranty on it.. so the "if the battery dies" is nonsense.
what you pay to "rent the battery" over the 8 years, would be enough to buy a new one and have spare money.

Worse case scenario for battery ownership ( battery dying in 8 years 1 month)
Buy a leased zoe , £13.5k, own it for 8 years+ £10560 lease (8 years/unlimnited) =£24k, battery dies after 8 years = new battery for free

buy a owned battery zoe for £19k, no lease = total 19k , battery dies after 8 years, buy a new one for 7-8K = £27k , the car will easily sell for £3K more than the leased on the used market after that

So even when the BATTERY DIES after 8 years, the ownership is still cheaper. Sorry but I dont believe anyone had A's on math and owns a zoe with battery lease.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
10,030 Posts
Sorry but I dont believe anyone had A's on math and owns a zoe with battery lease
I guess you also think the millions of people who rent houses are not good at maths too?

I did get As and am very happy with the numbers. I put £6K in Bricklane rather than a battery as that should grow whereas a battery will depreciate.

Anyone who uses current and past EV price performance as an indicator of the future is nieve. We have no way of predicting how much any Zoe will be worth in 5 years. Mine is currently worth more as a private sale than I paid over a year ago, which is clearly bonkers.

Personally I like the 75% SOC guarantee (vs 66% on battery owned) the battery lease provides and am confident that after 5 years I will have no issue selling to someone for low mileage, local driving who values the ongoing warranty.

Again, there is choice and each to their own...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
Thanks for the replies folks, all this is very useful!

I think that's a fair summary; I think the main point of the battery lease is to make the list price of the car £6k cheaper than it would otherwise be, and if you only intend to keep the car for as long as the three year PCP lasts, as most people will, then the lease makes more sense
As others have said, I'd expect the battery owned car to retain much more value after 3 years though, so you should get back the extra money you paid up-front.

The main put-off for me wasn't so much leasing the battery for the first 3 years, it was that there is no option to buy the battery at the end of it. So you'll eventually end up with the car itself worth practically nothing, but still tied into an expensive lease, which is surely going to increase depreciation on the car even more as it gets older: you can pick up a 15 year old petrol car in good condition for £500-1000, would you do the same for a 15 year old EV that still forced you to pay £1320/year for a battery lease? At some point the car will reach an age where the battery lease is unjustifiably expensive and will be scrapped even though there's nothing wrong with it - doesn't sound environmentally great to me!

I didn't start this post to have a go at people who buy battery leased cars - if you want to buy one then go ahead, just that for me the maths didn't seem to make sense and all future owners being tied into a lease for the whole life of the car sounded like a bit of a nonsense!

  • The battery warranty is not 4 years, it's 8 years
  • There is little indication that Renault are withdrawing the option to buy a battery owned version. We know from the Germany pricing that both options will be offered. Quite why they haven't withdrawn the battery lease version is beyond me personally...
Thanks for confirming my suspicions that the salesman was lying. I was pretty suspicious when he said that battery ownership was going away because I was under the impression that the whole EV market was going in the opposite direction and battery leases were becoming a thing of the past.

OP, I am firmly in the battery owned camp. The important thing to consider is not the difference in purchase price, but difference in depreciation costs. So far, all data indicates it is much cheaper to buy a battery owned car than a battery lease car, since the battery owned cars have seen little in the way of depreciation.

Having said that, I would only consider a used battery owned model at the moment, and only one that is well priced (<£16k ideally). That's because the current model is the most expensive it has ever been (~£19k), and the new model is out next year, and based on the pricing of other hatchback EVs coming to the market, it will likely be only around the £25K mark. I would be more tempted by the Corsa-e though personally....
The £6k jump up to £25k would be quite significant - it'd quite possibly make it expensive enough to put us off. We'd quite like to switch to electric for environmental reasons, but at the moment I consider the technology to be "almost there" - a couple of years ago and there's no way we'd be considering an EV, in a couple of years I imagine we'd definitely go for an EV. So at the moment we're on the fence about getting an EV now or getting another dinosaur-juice car to tide us over for 2-3 years until EVs improve a bit more.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
10,030 Posts
As others have said, I'd expect the battery owned car to retain much more value after 3 years though, so you should get back the extra money you paid up-front.
As I said above, be careful. The EV market is changing a lot at present and spending £20K or more on a small EV is a gamble. This is why many are renting with EVezy or going PCP to mitigate any risk. However, both those options have finance costs.

My strategy had been to buy a £6K used Zoe 22kWh. However the deal (Dec 17) for a new R90 was too good to miss, but I did have to wait until July 18 for delivery! Over 5 years my depreciation (like all EVs) is uncertain but I suspect will be OK and my £6K in Bricklane will hopefully grow.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,652 Posts
I went rental because:-

1. For my mileage it was cheaper over 5 years
2. I didn’t have the upfront money to buy battery outright
3. I liked the life time warranty on the battery (for selling on)
4. I like the breakdown assist

It’s pretty simple but you have to make the choice based on your mileage and situation

If you actually think you will need unlimited mileage then battery owned will probably be better really

There is no right or wrong answer no matter what the ridiculousness of people say :)

JJ
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
941 Posts
The £6k jump up to £25k would be quite significant - it'd quite possibly make it expensive enough to put us off. We'd quite like to switch to electric for environmental reasons, but at the moment I consider the technology to be "almost there" - a couple of years ago and there's no way we'd be considering an EV, in a couple of years I imagine we'd definitely go for an EV. So at the moment we're on the fence about getting an EV now or getting another dinosaur-juice car to tide us over for 2-3 years until EVs improve a bit more.
Yea completely appreciate that.

You could do what I did, and just watch the used market for a well priced used battery owned one. Took me 6 months though!

There actually was a battery owned 2017 signature model for sale in the classified section on here. It was well priced at ~£16k, but did have high mileage (45k).

Predictably, it's already sold though!
 
1 - 20 of 130 Posts
Top