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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm probably starting another pointless speculation thread here, but I'm wondering about the battery heating that I've heard about with the ZE40 pack. Is this likely to be something within the pack itself (i.e. self-contained) or will it be tied into the car's AC system, as I'm lead to believe the battery cooling is?

This would surely affect the complexity of any upgrade. Or, would it be the case that an upgrade forgoes the battery warming ability?

Speaking of which, does heating the batteries have any benefit (for example, increasing the range in winter)? There is obviously an energy cost to heat the batteries, but is this outweighed by an increase in the batteries' performance? Or is it purely to ensure that the battery-pack can be charged in cold weather and nothing more?
 

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MG EZS 2020
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The battery pack is already connected to the A/C so imagine the heating will come from the same source. maybe.

Heating the battery does improve winter performance. I was told by the Tesla agent a couple of years ago that their packs are kept at 15C for that reason. Don't know what effect that has on the battery draw. It must be within acceptable limits.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
The battery pack is already connected to the A/C so imagine the heating will come from the same source. maybe.

Heating the battery does improve winter performance. I was told by the Tesla agent a couple of years ago that their packs are kept at 15C for that reason. Don't know what effect that has on the battery draw. It must be within acceptable limits.
If this is the case, it does make me wonder why the current ZOE doesn't already implement battery heating? Maybe it's a case of diminishing returns as battery packs get smaller?
 

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If this is the case, it does make me wonder why the current ZOE doesn't already implement battery heating? Maybe it's a case of diminishing returns as battery packs get smaller?
I thought the Zoe already did have battery heating. But I may have dreamt it...!
 

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Is it not just vented, but not heated. The new system sounds more like tesla, where the battery are kept at relative constant temperature. However, I believe the tesla does draw energy for that task and should be plugged in when left for a while. This is not needed at the current Zoe.
 

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Yes, currently even if you turn A/C off, Zoe can turn it on again to cool the pack. Maintaining pack temperature helps with the Tesla's range, so may be needed on a larger pack:cautious:.
 

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Co-author of CanZE. Q210 nov 2013
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Current models, as said have a "detour circuit" of the A/C, activating a small evaporator outside the battery pack, cooling the inflowing air. Battery ventilation can be off / on / cooled.

The new models can indeed also provide heat flipping a few T-valves I would assume. Renault has already pointed out this feature cannot be retrofitted, in other words, a "real" new model is not the same as the old model with a new battery.

Battery heating is tricky. You don't need it during driving a lot (the internal resistance goes up a bit so yes, it does improve efficiency somewhat), but you DO need when fast-charging. But by then it's too late to switch it on: you don't heat up 200 kg of material in a few minutes like this. And keeping it "hot" always is ludicrous of course.

Still, ZOE could benefit a lot I think. Current chemistry tapers off charging rather violently in cold weather. Sub zero you really need to fast charge AFTER a long drive, not when it's cold soaked. I have no idea how different the new chemistry is but the fact that battery heating is now implemented suggests this cold behavior has not improved by the chemistry itself.
 

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I thought, possibly incorrectly, that morning preconditioning to heat car also pumped some heat into pack, explains why after a morning precon your available range is a couple of miles higher than without.
 
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I thought, possibly incorrectly, that morning preconditioning to heat car also pumped some heat into pack, explains why after a morning precon your available range is a couple of miles higher than without.
I guess this could also just be heat soak from the cabin?
 

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Co-author of CanZE. Q210 nov 2013
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@Sandy Nope, it can't do that. What you are seeing IMHO is more the chemical "evening out" of the battery, that btw usually is gone again after a few miles driving.

@Huw EV I haven't figured out if the the battery's fan input side is taking air from the cabin or from ambient. It's a bit hard to figure out as there are shields and covers everywhere, but given that the battery itself is entirely "outside" the shell, if someone twisted my arm about it, I'd guess ambient.
 

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I've been thinking quite a lot about begging the local Renault office to allow me to upgrade, but seeing the daily usage... I'm currently thinking to wait until the the lease is out:
IMG_3236.JPG

(Driving during the last 10 days; R-Link app called Dashboard)

Knowing that my driving pattern is quite consistent, I think I'd only use more than 200 km in a day probably 4-5 times a year. I'm not sure if an upgrade (even for 3k) would justify it.

Here's another one (September was lower because the car was 1 week in service for a bumper replacement):
IMG_3237.JPG


I'd be curious to see other people's driving patterns and whether it actually justifies spending the extra money on the battery upgrade (during a lease).
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I'd be curious to see other people's driving patterns and whether it actually justifies spending the extra money on the battery upgrade (during a lease).
This could be a little counter-intuitive because people's current usage patterns are restricted by the current range limitations. For example, I was planning to take a ~80 mile round trip at the weekend. I'm sure many people on here would say "easy" etc. but for me, what is "easy" is to take my wife's ICE car and not worry about whether I can get 80 miles on a motorway journey, or alternatively, concern myself with whether or not the charger at my destination would be working, whether I would have problems using the app, or would the car BCI etc. etc.

That round-trip would definitely be achievable on one charge with the ZE40 battery and all of those worries/concerns (whether valid or not) would be gone. In a 186-mile range ZOE, I would have had no qualms about jumping in the ZOE and making that trip.

As things stand, my ZOE is purely a commuting tool, with occasional local usage at the weekends. The battery upgrade would change my mindset, and thus my usage of the ZOE. At least, that is my belief.
 

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Co-author of CanZE. Q210 nov 2013
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@StinkyPete Warning, possible mud slinging ahead :whistle:

While I absolutely not disagree with you, I am (honesty, seriously) surprised any ZOE driver that has his car for more than say 3 months would even think about possibly not reaching 80 miles. There are only three conditions I could imagine making me personally think otherwise, and that probably translates into the "easy / not easy" discussion:
- high speed needed;
- sub zero temperatures;
- top of a serious mountain at the end of the trip.
Especially on 80 miles trips, again, personally, I also value the relaxed, quiet, easy drive.
 

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had an R240, got an R90, might get a ZE50
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For 80 miles by myself, no problems.
With SWMBO worried about the range etc, diversions etc, maybe not.
 

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Co-author of CanZE. Q210 nov 2013
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You guys just don't get it. Take it from an old fart.

M: "Honey, I promise you, we'll make it, with plenty left".
F (explicit or implicit): "It's your fault and your responsibility if we don't".
M: "Yes dear" (mentally preparing for a "I told you so!").

Now don't tell me I didn't warn you about this thread derailing. Ducking!!!!! :mad::p:D:rolleyes::sick::whistle::cautious:
 

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@StinkyPete Warning, possible mud slinging ahead :whistle:

While I absolutely not disagree with you, I am (honesty, seriously) surprised any ZOE driver that has his car for more than say 3 months would even think about possibly not reaching 80 miles. There are only three conditions I could imagine making me personally think otherwise, and that probably translates into the "easy / not easy" discussion:
- high speed needed;
- sub zero temperatures;
- top of a serious mountain at the end of the trip.
Especially on 80 miles trips, again, personally, I also value the relaxed, quiet, easy drive.
My GOM predicts 62 miles at 100% in summer; 50 in winter.

I wouldn't dream of attempting an 80 mile trip.
 

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My GOM predicts 62 miles at 100% in summer; 50 in winter.

I wouldn't dream of attempting an 80 mile trip.
You must drive hard, i thought I was a generally hard driver. Have you checked the SOH recently?
 

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M: "Honey, I promise you, we'll make it, with plenty left".
F (explicit or implicit): "It's your fault and your responsibility if we don't".
M: "Yes dear" (mentally preparing for a "I told you so!").
Strangely, we have that exact conversation more in the ICE car than the ZOE.
 

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Zoe Q210 Dynamique Intens, Kia Niro PHEV
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This could be a little counter-intuitive because people's current usage patterns are restricted by the current range limitations. For example, I was planning to take a ~80 mile round trip at the weekend. I'm sure many people on here would say "easy" etc. but for me, what is "easy" is to take my wife's ICE car and not worry about whether I can get 80 miles on a motorway journey, or alternatively, concern myself with whether or not the charger at my destination would be working, whether I would have problems using the app, or would the car BCI etc. etc.

That round-trip would definitely be achievable on one charge with the ZE40 battery and all of those worries/concerns (whether valid or not) would be gone. In a 186-mile range ZOE, I would have had no qualms about jumping in the ZOE and making that trip.

As things stand, my ZOE is purely a commuting tool, with occasional local usage at the weekends. The battery upgrade would change my mindset, and thus my usage of the ZOE. At least, that is my belief.
Agreed, Zoe Q210 not been outside of 40 miles from home since the first 2 months when it seamed like fun to experiment, now however much easier to take the Kuga, but with either of the 400 models I would probably travel 3 or 4 times as far as have a granny cable for overnight refreshment to remove reliance on external network.
 
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