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Discussion Starter #201 (Edited)
Meanwhile in Germany, some lunatic has drive their Zoe 22 kWh for 186,000 miles on the same pack.


Probably a complete coincidence that the pack is actively cooled...
You might want to Read the source, before you cite it.

The pack actually was replaced due to degradation relatively early, and the total cost of ownership has been outrageous for that unfortunate "lunatic".

The ATM, which obviously did little if anything to extend battery life, certainly was one factor in the very high TCO.

...We guess that the battery rental cost was so far over €15,000, while the electricity cost is around €4,000. €35,000 ($39,000) in total so far...

Past the 200,000 km (124,000 miles) the range significantly decreased so it was difficult to cover the distance, even one way (85 km/53 miles). The indicated range was 90 km. The gradual decrease of the battery capacity reached 71% of the original value (below 75% guaranteed by Renault when renting the battery pack). The French manufacturer replaced the battery with another "second-hand but in excellent condition", which took three days.

According to the article, Frédéric Richard is satisfied with the ZOE, and because of its completely "unsaleable" status (old car with rented battery)..."
 

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I didn’t realise you were highlighting that the benefit of passive management is no battery rental...

The last sentence says it all, the guy who parted with the money is satisfied. That is what matters.

I find it somewhat curious that some people can only validate their own purchasing decisions by seemingly invalidating everyone else’s, you will always be disappointed I feel. On this end of the discussion if feels very much that the only possible purchase that is correct would be one you made.

Said it previously I am very happy with my choice, because I am. It doesn’t mean I have to spend my time dissing other people’s choices or indeed build somewhat fatuous arguments as why mine is better.
 

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You might want to Read the source, before you cite it.

The pack actually was replaced due to degradation relatively early, and the total cost of ownership has been outrageous for that unfortunate "lunatic".

The ATM, which obviously did little if anything to extend battery life, certainly was one factor in the very high TCO.

...We guess that the battery rental cost was so far over €15,000, while the electricity cost is around €4,000. €35,000 ($39,000) in total so far...

Past the 200,000 km (124,000 miles) the range significantly decreased so it was difficult to cover the distance, even one way (85 km/53 miles). The indicated range was 90 km. The gradual decrease of the battery capacity reached 71% of the original value (below 75% guaranteed by Renault when renting the battery pack). The French manufacturer replaced the battery with another "second-hand but in excellent condition", which took three days.

According to the article, Frédéric Richard is satisfied with the ZOE, and because of its completely "unsaleable" status (old car with rented battery)..."
Great - so RCI honoured the terms of the agreement. But the pack didn’t actually fail.

I wonder how a Nissan Leaf would fare at 180,000 miles? Now where did I see that...?
 

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Discussion Starter #204 (Edited)
Great - so RCI honoured the terms of the agreement. But the pack didn’t actually fail...
70% of new capacity is an oft-cited standard for EOL for BEV batteries, but most BEVS seem to be able to continue to operate for many years and tens of thousands of miles after this point.

The main exceptions seems to be TSLA packs, all I've see having reported failures occurring long before 30% degradation is noticed.

Fluid leaks seem to be a specific cause of premature pack failure, not only for TSLAs, but in other ATM BEVS as well.

"My 23 KW battery is being replaced

My 2013 Focus Electric with 34000 miles on it is having its 23 KW battery replaced due to an internal coolant leak in one of the packs...

Thank goodness that the warranty covers this as it would have surely been an early grave if I had to pay for the new battery at over $23,000. I will post an update when I get my car back. "


...I wonder how a Nissan Leaf would fare at 180,000 miles? Now where did I see that...?
Maybe you're thinking of the previous page of this thread...

'"200,000 or Bust

Sustainable Race operates the highest mileage commercial LEAF currently active in San Francisco with 191,170 miles. The vehicle still operates on the original battery and brakes. This is the 2013 Nissan LEAF S. Yes, it has a fast charging port. The goal is 200,000 miles on the battery. Eight bars at present yields about 58 miles (12-13-19)..."

SUSTAINABLE RACE: Highest Mileage LEAF 200,000 or Bust

Sustainable Race operates the highest mileage commercial LEAF currently active in San Francisco with 191170 miles. Original battery and brakes.

sustainablerace.com

Remember that in terms of total charge cycles on this LEAF's "24 kWh" pack, An "85 kWh" Tesla pack would have to power an S well over 700,000 miles to match it...'
 

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70% of new capacity is an oft-cited standard for EOL for BEV batteries, but most BEVS seem to be able to continue to operate for many years and tens of thousands of miles after this point.

The main exceptions seems to be TSLA packs, all I've see having reported failures occurring long before 30% degradation is noticed.

Fluid leaks seem to be a specific cause of premature pack failure, not only for TSLAs, but in other ATM BEVS as well.

"My 23 KW battery is being replaced

My 2013 Focus Electric with 34000 miles on it is having its 23 KW battery replaced due to an internal coolant leak in one of the packs...

Thank goodness that the warranty covers this as it would have surely been an early grave if I had to pay for the new battery at over $23,000. I will post an update when I get my car back. "




Maybe you're thinking of the previous page of this thread...

'"200,000 or Bust

Sustainable Race operates the highest mileage commercial LEAF currently active in San Francisco with 191,170 miles. The vehicle still operates on the original battery and brakes. This is the 2013 Nissan LEAF S. Yes, it has a fast charging port. The goal is 200,000 miles on the battery. Eight bars at present yields about 58 miles (12-13-19)..."

SUSTAINABLE RACE: Highest Mileage LEAF 200,000 or Bust

Sustainable Race operates the highest mileage commercial LEAF currently active in San Francisco with 191170 miles. Original battery and brakes.

sustainablerace.com

Remember that in terms of total charge cycles on this LEAF's "24 kWh" pack, An "85 kWh" Tesla pack would have to power an S well over 700,000 miles to match it...'
Can I clarify the point you seem to be struggling to make?

Are you saying BEVs have very expensive repairs when they go wrong?.... yeah, we know that ...

Are you saying that water cooled BEVs go wrong more often than BEVs without water cooling? OK, maybe, do you have anything to show that? You're only posting stories about water cooled BEVs going wrong, but I am sure I have seen many times that number about air cooled packs going wrong.

Do you have statistics to show one is worse than the other?
 

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I was watching a WeberAuto vid on YT of a complete disassembly/reassembly of a Nissan battery and all I could think was what a crazy idea to seal this heat source completely inside a box without some sort of venting! Anyway one advantage is that you only need some sockets, spanners and a torque wrench to completely service one. No internal leak risk at least :)

Not sure if previously posted but one nutter in Germany I believe drives hundreds of kilometers a day in a Model S and has recently passed 1,000,000 KMs. 3 motors (early ones were unreliable) and 2nd pack so far but he's now aiming for 1,000,000 miles! Crazy.
 

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Discussion Starter #207 (Edited)
I was watching a WeberAuto vid on YT of a complete disassembly/reassembly of a Nissan battery and all I could think was what a crazy idea to seal this heat source completely inside a box without some sort of venting!...
The primary method for cooling LEAF packs (and all other BEV packs) is conductive. The LEAFs pack designers likely concluded the cooling benefits of venting the packs would be negligible, as compared to the harm done to the packs by contamination/corrosion caused by leaving them unsealed.

"...Not sure if previously posted but one nutter in Germany I believe drives hundreds of kilometers a day in a Model S and has recently passed 1,000,000 KMs. 3 motors (early ones were unreliable) and 2nd pack so far but he's now aiming for 1,000,000 miles! Crazy.
This rather garbled report form a less-than-reliable source seems to be as close to the facts as is available:

"...The car is currently using its 4th electric motor. The current one is holding well after 680,000 km. It is also the only one the car has since we are talking about an RWD unit. Anyway, it had to go to the shop three times to have so many km crossed, but not only that. It is also in its 3rd battery pack.
Von Gemmingen says his former batteries started to have problems when the car had 290,000 km. Tesla needed half a year to replace it, so he got a loaner battery for this period and did more 150,000 km with it. That was when he got the final battery pack installed, currently with 470,000 km. He counts only two of them, but we think the loaner battery also deserves some recognition.
The problem with these numbers is that there must be something missing. The 290,000 km plus 150,000 km would make the car have 440,000 km when it got the current battery pack. If it is actually on the EV for the last 470,000 km, it would be “only” a 910,000-km, short of the one million km mark by 90,000 km. We hope Von Gemmingen can explain that to us in the future..."


 
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