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This is the guy who is Head of R&D! Well he was up until today!
Even if he thought it - why did he say it!
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
You did 383 miles in one run? in a 100% EV?
No, 200 miles then overnight stop, then next day another 183 miles in a Tesla Roadster.

My point is that with range you don't necessarily require charging on route and that's just one example where BMWs comments are correct.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
In all fairness, you only managed those journeys due to the long range of your Tesla. I'd struggle to even get a Leaf back home from a dealer without public charging along the way.
Thats the point... public charging is only required by some EVs some of the time... and as range increases the requirement drops.
 

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Battery size should be scalable. Same car - but 3-4 battery options. Kevin needs 200++, I Wouk settle for 150+\-, but there are many who would take the cheapest / short range options. I'm sure the car companies have looked at that; however, I fear the BEV is being 'niched' at <100 miles.
Tesla are the exception and it's looks like Audi will provide a matching luxury EV. However, it's anyone guess as to what progress can be expect with budget priced EVs?
 

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BMW's comments are ridiculous. In all fairness, you only managed those journeys due to the long range of your Tesla. I'd struggle to even get a Leaf back home from a dealer without public charging along the wItay
BMW's comment does not sound ridiculous to me. Those who use in journey charging are using their vehicles for purposes for which they were not designed or originally intended. I say well done to them, but electric vehicles will prosper without them because they will be used as intended within their one charge range using home charging or destination charging. Destinations increase in distance with the use of E-REV's and as and when battery range is increased. Until the latter arrives for vehicles other than existing Tesla's there will not be mass take up of BEV's as an only car because not many, other than enthusiasts, are prepared to break their trips into 70 or so mile sections to recharge.
For my own personal use I want one electric vehicle to replace my previous ICE giving the similar range.. At the moment it is an Ampera and I look forward to the day that the equivalent is available as a BEV at a similar price.
 

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Those who use in journey charging are using their vehicles for purposes for which they were not designed or originally intended.
If that's true then I wonder why Nissan went to all the trouble to put that big socket on the front of their car, or indeed to buy a company that makes rapid chargers and then donate chargers to a company that fits them at motorway services.
 

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I find it odd that people seem to think cars are not designed to go beyond "one tank" with a quick top up on the way?

My longest drive was from the southern edge of Spain back to the UK, the car I used wasn't "designed for it" though as I had to refuel on the way.

Petrol and diesel cars seems to have really long ranges, why do we have so many petrol stations? We don't need that infrastructure AT ALL yet they keep building them close to each other, why?!

Convenience and lifestyle I'd say.

People keep saying people want to use EVs just as "cars", I know that's what I do, and for this to happen then the higher numbers and greater variety of chargers available will only help support that.

The theory that cars should only really do their "range" or less in one journey seems a little perverse, based on regular car culture and people's desire to drive.

We need a mix, and a big charge infrastructure is all part of it.
 

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We are not alone in thinking that a charging infrastructure is the way to go - see Autoexpress article below!

Surely the whole issue involves the cost of batteries 'v' users 'normal' car usage. In theory you can buy the biggest battery you can afford and go as far as you like OR buy a battery that suits 90% of your needs and take alternatives when you exceptionally need to travel further? Be that a charging station, hire a car - or take bus/train/flight.

Any longer range EV will have huge cost penalty - as with Tesla. However, for most of us we trade off the (rarely used) range for a lower purchase price. Mass uptake will only happen - if we keep the initial purchase price as near a possible - close to those of ICE cars. In my view the long range protagonists who have been lobbying here are totally naive if they think that the car industry will supply longer range and affordable EVs - its simply oxymoron!

From Autoexpress dated 30 Jan 14:
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Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg has announced a £9.3 million investment in car charging infrastructure to support the launch of a new ultra-low emission vehicle (ULEV) campaign.

Read more: http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-ne...s-go-ultra-low-ps93m-investment#ixzz2s3t4elNc
"
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
If that's true then I wonder why Nissan went to all the trouble to put that big socket on the front of their car
Because people think they drive a long way everyday... if you talk to real EV drivers you will find many never charge anywhere but at home and that's what BMWs research has confirmed.

Some people will use in route charging but it will be a lot less than many expect because at the two extremes of journey length suitable EVs will exist.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
We are not alone in thinking that a charging infrastructure is the way to go - see Autoexpress article below!
You are making a profound mistake if you believe that the bureaucrats making decisions about charging infrastructure have any knowledge about the subject. Until recently, NONE of the senior members OLEV drove electric and at a meeting of the industry leaders 18 months ago I was the only driver in a group of 50+ people.
 

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The question being posed was that public charging was not an important piece of the puzzle in making electric vehicles a success. I agree with that statement, I believe true success depends on longer battery ranges and destination charging, not en route charging. That does not imply en route charging does not have its place. It is just my opinion that it is not the item that will make electric vehicles successful. The general public is not prepared to journey in the manner demonstrated by David Peilow and Paul Churchley even if there are many more charging points.
 

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I must say I sort of agree with BMW on this one, I have had my Leaf since May and have never used a post or a level 2 station yet, I have a type 1 to 2 cable just in case but I am pretty sure I wont use it, everyones usage is different but I do agree though I mostly charge at home, this is also because I prefer to charge my car off solar at least that way I know I am getting 100% renewable energy in to my car you are most certainly not when you charge elsewhere.

Most of my Rapid charging I would say 90% of it has been just because its there and its free not because I have needed to do it, The Leaf whilst a great car could be massively improved, they could adopt the chameleon charger of the ZOE so we could utilise the far simpler and more reliable 3 phase AC charging, they could improve the C rate of their cells, they are only rated at 3C which limits the fast charging capability of the cells, hence the not so rapid rapid charging experience people moan about, its quicker than level 2 but having looked at the model s its not rapid.

Watching Mark and Nikki take the model S from London to Bristol and back proves the point, they made the trip without any need to stop other than to change driving seats, I am changing my mind slowly partly thanks to the contributions of others on here and am starting to realise that the money they are spending on the charging infrastructure would be better spent elsewhere, I would say it would be better if they increased the government grant to help reduce the cost of the car for new owners but this can not always work as the manufacturers would only mark the car up to then pocket the difference.

With range being the bug bear for most the money would surely be better spent on a battery subsidy scheme which would give the cars more range but keep the prices down.

I agree we need a network of sorts but this must be reliable and it must be rapid to be useful, its not really any of that at the moment.

Range will sell cars, if my Leaf would do 200 miles and could be charged like a Model S at that speed I know so many of my friends would buy them, the range thing is always the kicker, when I talk about my Leaf to people who know nothing about them they are always super enthusiastic with my pitch until I tell them the range, I always say it will do 80 miles, their faces tend to drop a little, I then say quickly you can charge it for free though and in 20 mins (which is stretching it a little) and they still say err no...if they did 300 miles then maybe.

We know in practice they dont need a 300 mile range car but you are never going to change peoples perspective on that so why not work to get nearer to the magic range, its much better to have it and not need it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
People keep saying people want to use EVs just as "cars", I know that's what I do, and for this to happen then the higher numbers and greater variety of chargers available will only help support that.
As range increases the EV becomes more like a 21st century car for many. I can jump in my EV now and drive from Bath to London without any in route charging and that just gets easier as range increases.

I have been fascinated to watch Nikki and Marks drive of the Model S because they have been very dismissive of range recently. IMO they have had a revelation... watch their 5 minute videos.
 

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Driving a car for long distances isn't a revelation, it's obvious and it has to be done, I've never thought or argued otherwise.

BMW have always called their BEVs "megacity" vehicles as that's their intention, which is probably more honest than most, but a charging infrastructure is ONLY a good thing, Tesla and their supercharger hype show they agree too.

I think the mainstream manufacturers and government have got it wrong, but as the manufacturers are getting US to foot the bill for the charging infrastructure they focus on that more than improving their cars, which is wrong.

If a LEAF had a 200 mile real world range they'd sell a load more, if a LEAF had a 200 mile range AND you saw rapid chargers all over the place, they'd sell EVEN more.

You need both, range and infrastructure, which in my view is the part Tesla are doing right.
 

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We can expect the established motor manufacturers to produce cars with ranges in the order of 200+miles. It would destroy their existing business overnight. Indeed the repercussions on the shoe car industry could implode with factories closing and mass redundancies. Potentially big names could tumble.
What we are seeing is manufacturers dabbling in the EV market - they are making limited production quantities and keep the wait time long. They are also setting premium prices for quite small cars.
Of course Tesla can go its own way, they have no existing manufacturing base to put at risk. However, the premium on their cars is huge - double the price of a comparable ICE luxury car. Merc, Audi and BMW may well be lining up cars to compete - but you can bet they will be closely matched on price and capability.
We've all got to recognise that the situation will not be changing dramatically soon. There will be more choice as no manufacturer can afford to be out of the race. However, short range short range BEV are likely to be a reality for a long time yet and whilst Kevin and Knoxie may argue that some people to do not use the infrastructure - there are no statics to confirm that these people are a significant minority. The infrastructure is being established be analogous to everyone established motoring experience - so no Low Carbon initiative would be credible without it.
In summary - is about horses-for-courses:
- If you can afford a long range BEV - then buy it;
- if you think a PHEV suits you lifestyle and motoring preference - buy it;
- If you buy a PHEV you can use the charging infrastructure, or not - free choice;
- if you think a short-range BEV suits you lifestyle and motoring preference - buy it;
- If you buy a short-range BEV you can use the charging infrastructure, or not - free choice.
The future should be evolutive and flexible. People can even make 2 choice (running 2 cars) that fine.
What seems futile is for individuals to promoting policy change that could affect 1000s of motorists who have invested hard earned cash and have joined in the Low Carbon Challenge!
My vote is to encourage CHOICE and let the evolution of EV take a free course - with no manipulation from any segment.
 
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