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Brake Failure

33705 Views 167 Replies 45 Participants Last post by  srichards
Hi all,

Brief history first I have been a Leaf owner for 4 years and my second one has just gone back as the PCP had run its course. I was a leaf Ambassador during the earlier years (hi people if you remember me from Maine road) and up till 30th April I would have told everybody I spoke to how brilliant they are. I am deliberately posting this as a new thread as I find adding to existing just means facts get confused and lost.
On the 1st May whilst in a queue of traffic I rear ended the car in front because my brakes failed completely.
The only reason I stopped was because I hit it . 30 seconds earlier I was doing 70 on the motorway.
The brake pedal just went to the floor and nothing happened other than the ABS system apparently kicking in as I could feel the brake pedal vibrating under my foot.
The incident has now been reported to DVSA. and I would encourage others who have experienced similar to do the same.
The response from Nissan has been less than satisfactory. I would have been happy to help in any way but they have not spoken to me.
I note the other instances on threads of similar things happening and I can only say that this SHOULD NOT BE POSSIBLE. Its a car and it should have brakes that work ALL the time.
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Mark, please don't trade this car: some other victim will drive it putting their life in danger or crashing into someone's else's wife, mother, daughter etc.

Have you spoken to your Trading Standards officer?

If they can't help, I would be contacting a no fee type of claims Lawyer.
Huh, seems my reply was deleted by admin?

Anyway, trading standards won't do anything. I reported the car to the DVSA and they basically backed up Nissan. Best advice is to keep pushing Nissan UK to get the dealer to do the firmware upgrade. Say you'll go to the press or an ombudsman. It worked for me and they eventually did the firmware update. Best of luck.
Ok, just had my first braking "scare" in my 2016 Leaf this morning in the wet on the way to work. :(

There is a section of road that curves to a give way that has a huge rut all the way across the lane that is something like 20cm wide (thanks Glasgow city council...) which is pretty harsh to drive over at the best of times. It's a stretch of road on one of my "alternative" routes so I drive over it approximately 50% of the time on the way to work so I know it well.

This morning was very wet and I was going perhaps a little faster than usual, (although still under 30) and coming towards me the opposing road forks - I need to give way to cars taking the right fork but not the left fork and it's not always obvious until late which fork oncoming cars are going to take because nobody indicates.

So yeah, I got caught out a little and had to do some "firm" braking which unfortunately coincided almost perfectly with the front wheels hitting the rut. I then experienced what many people describe - almost complete loss of braking force for an extended period of time.

By instinct I immediately pressed down a lot further and harder and there was still some braking available, however it was very weak and felt completely unassisted causing me to come to a fairly leisurely stop, fortunately short of the give way line. It all happened so quickly that I had no time to think about pressing the foot operated parking brake as well, although if I had been stopping over a longer distance from a higher speed I would have had time to apply that too.

No warning lights came on and the loss of braking assistance I estimate lasted more than 2 seconds, (until after I had stopped in fact) with no discernible ABS "pulsing" just "bam!", loss of assistance the instant I hit the rut and assistance never came back until after I stopped. After I moved off the brakes were working normally again.

So what happened ? I know a fair bit about how braking and ABS systems work and have done troubleshooting on faulty systems before so of course I've been turning it over in my head trying to work out what happened, although this is made more difficult due to the Leaf's somewhat unique electric brake servo system.

One thing is clear - hitting the rut in the road was the instigating event which triggered the whole thing as the loss of brakes happened the instant I felt the rut hit.

It's not uncommon for ruts in the road to trigger ABS on cars - when the wheel falls into the rut it accelerates very quickly then when it climbs out it decelerates very quickly. If this deceleration coincides with you firmly applying the brakes this is interpreted as the wheel locking up and ABS will trigger on that wheel releasing the brake on that wheel. But usually this will only result in some pulsing that lasts maybe half a second or so, and only on the affected wheel. If you're riding the brake lightly its common to feel the pedal pulse on some cars when you pass a rut as the speed sensor detects the sudden increase and decrease in wheel speed.

There are some compounding factors here to make the situation worse though:

1) The Leaf like most EV's seems to cut regen completely the moment the ABS activates for any reason. If you're decelerating at a modest rate a lot of that is coming from regen so an instantaneous loss of regen when say 70% of your deceleration is coming from regen will feel like a momentary brake failure - you have to press the pedal a lot harder to bring in the friction brakes to restore the amount of deceleration you had prior to the regen being cut. I suspect this is what a lot of people having "mild" brake failures on their Leaf's are actually experiencing - just the sudden removal of regen, and I have experienced that several times on my previous EV (Peugeot Ion) as well.

2) There was a lot of rain and a bit of flooding this morning so it's likely the discs were wet and not working at their best and regen means that unless you brake hard there is not enough friction brake use to dry the brakes out properly - meaning that when regen was cut the friction brakes were probably not working nearly as well as they should be due to being wet, this would make the loss of braking feel even worse.

3) The rut is straight across the lane so both left and right wheels hit it simultaneously meaning ABS action is going to cut braking to both wheels on the same axle at the same time whereas ABS is normally designed to cut braking to individual wheels that are on slippery patches.

4) Although it's hard to be sure, I think ABS kicked in on the rear brakes when they hit the rut as well, and near simultaneous activation of both front and rear ABS is going to seriously limit your braking.

Even with all this there was some braking force available but it was weak and unassisted. If I was just experiencing ABS pulsing the brakes should have returned to full strength in a fraction of a second after the rut was passed so I suspect the main issue was the removal of regen for an extended period of time (regen is cut for much longer than a normal ABS pulse interval) and wet friction brakes that were ineffective under moderate braking.

And before anyone asks, yes my 2016 30kWh Leaf already has the brake control unit firmware update that supposedly fixes the "known" issues with the brake control unit. Also my 12v battery was replaced only a few weeks ago so weak 12v battery can be ruled out.

I can totally see how someone who doesn't understand how Braking/ABS/Regen systems work and interact with each other would see this as a "brake failure".
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I've had a similar thing happen on my Leaf E+ a couple of times, always at the same place.

I've lifted off in 1 pedal mode and am slowing down on a short steep curved wet road with a giveway line at the bottom.

Normally I have to use the brakes as well to avoid overshooting the line. (it's quite a blind junction).

On both occasions, pressing the brake pedal with the usual amount of force resulted in nothing happening and I have to really stomp on the pedal. The ABS then kicks in and I stop just over the line.
It's very disconcerting.

I can only surmise that the ABS ecu detects one wheel about to lock up and limits the brake pressure until you press much harder and then it allows more pressure until the full ABS activation.

Sometime the electronics can be too clever...
On my GTE I've experienced random loss of regen braking. Dealership has no idea but I suspect it is related to ABS. It seems to happen more on roads with poor surface or in wet conditions, but occasionally does happen in the dry. The explanation of the 'ruts' makes sense, as you might not interpret the road surface as being poor enough to trigger ABS from the look of it but as a 'dumb' computer all you can see is wheel speeds then reducing/cutting regen might make sense.
That is doing what the Soul EV did to me. It had exactly the same failing. I've not noticed it with other EVs and I have driven over the same roads in the same way with many different cars. It was definitely an outlier in behaviour.
On my GTE I've experienced random loss of regen braking. Dealership has no idea but I suspect it is related to ABS. It seems to happen more on roads with poor surface or in wet conditions, but occasionally does happen in the dry.
Intermittent loss of regen in dry conditions where there is no actual loss of traction can be caused by tyre diameter imbalances between front and rear. I also had that issue on my Peugeot Ion when I fitted new rear tyres while there were still mostly worn tyres on the front, with the front left being more worn than the front right.

The ABS system was not happy about that and developed a "hair trigger" that caused it to randomly cut out regen, particularly if I was decelerating around a slight left bend. When I replaced the front tyres as well restoring the balance in diameters the problem went away completely.

Some cars are very sensitive to any deviations in the rotational ratios between each wheel, from reading on here Kona's are particularly sensitive for example.

The explanation of the 'ruts' makes sense, as you might not interpret the road surface as being poor enough to trigger ABS from the look of it but as a 'dumb' computer all you can see is wheel speeds then reducing/cutting regen might make sense.
I've noticed ABS reacting to ruts (and also sharp raised sections like short speed bumps) ever since I've been driving cars with ABS. If you're not pressing the brake pedal at the time nothing happens but if you are braking you'll notice it. All the ABS system has to go on is the relative wheel speeds - if they deviate from each other too much (taking into account normal left right variations from steering) then a skid is assumed and action is taken on whichever wheel has an unexpectedly low rotation speed. The momentary sudden drop in rotation speed of a bad rut is enough to trigger most ABS systems as they react extremely fast.
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That is doing what the Soul EV did to me. It had exactly the same failing. I've not noticed it with other EVs and I have driven over the same roads in the same way with many different cars. It was definitely an outlier in behaviour.
Some cars may be more or less prone to this due to a couple of factors - wheel diameter and sensitivity of the ABS system.

The larger a wheel/tyre is the more it rides over the top of a rut and not only will it ride it better the momentary speed variation caused by the rut will be less than a smaller wheel which rides down into the rut more. Sensitivity and response time thresholds may be set differently in different cars as well. In other words how much speed deviation triggers a response and how quickly does it respond.

Regen being completely or dramatically cut when ABS kicks in is "by design" in most EV's. I'm not sure that I agree with it but it is what it is. Maybe not all EV's do it, I don't know, but the two I've owned certainly do.
Some cars may be more or less prone to this due to a couple of factors - wheel diameter and sensitivity of the ABS system.

The larger a wheel/tyre is the more it rides over the top of a rut and not only will it ride it better the momentary speed variation caused by the rut will be less than a smaller wheel which rides down into the rut more. Sensitivity and response time thresholds may be set differently in different cars as well. In other words how much speed deviation triggers a response and how quickly does it respond.

Regen being completely or dramatically cut when ABS kicks in is "by design" in most EV's. I'm not sure that I agree with it but it is what it is. Maybe not all EV's do it, I don't know, but the two I've owned certainly do.
Of the ones I've owned or had long enough try of it's only the Soul that did it noticeably. There's never been anything else that has been as weird when braking over rough ground. Leaf 40 I think did it a little but it didn't pause for such a long time while deciding what to do. Never noticed the Zoe doing it. Never noticed the Corsa doing it. Those were 16 inch and 17 inch wheels. Only other explanation is that the Soul was so bad I have subconsciously learned never to try braking over rough ground...
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