[SMLMcKenzie]

I assumed the alternative way of charging would be just so you’re covered in case of malfunctioning of the Indra charger

For my typical use, 1hr of granny charging per night would be sufficient

Using V2H with Octopus Go will save me 918£/year; I’ve also accounted for the time the car will be parked away from work (probably twice per week)

That’s compared with being on Octopus Go and charging the car only at night

I haven’t accounted for the effect of the energy guarantee by Liz Truss’ government because it’s not clear how it will change smart tariffs

You should also consider car price depreciation. Right now used car prices are very high. I think with the coming recession they will likely fall. I worked out that using 6kWh each day on the battery would be the equivalent to driving an extra 8640 miles a year. That has got to have an effect on the longevity of the battery.

I would expect to lose around 5% of the batteries health each year. After 2 years that would probably leave you with a car with only 50 miles range.

Assuming £1000 a year depreciation and you are looking at making a loss of £80 a year.

 

[jacoscar]

You should also consider car price depreciation. Right now used car prices are very high. I think with the coming recession they will likely fall. I worked out that using 6kWh each day on the battery would be the equivalent to driving an extra 8640 miles a year. That has got to have an effect on the longevity of the battery.

I would expect to lose around 5% of the batteries health each year. After 2 years that would probably leave you with a car with only 50 miles range.

Assuming £1000 a year depreciation and you are looking at making a loss of £80 a year.

Yes but that doesn’t account for the convenience of having an extra car (at the moment we are a couple with just one car)

 

[GarryL]

You should also consider car price depreciation. Right now used car prices are very high. I think with the coming recession they will likely fall. I worked out that using 6kWh each day on the battery would be the equivalent to driving an extra 8640 miles a year. That has got to have an effect on the longevity of the battery.

I would expect to lose around 5% of the batteries health each year. After 2 years that would probably leave you with a car with only 50 miles range.

Assuming £1000 a year depreciation and you are looking at making a loss of £80 a year.

That's pessimistic, in my view.

1. Typical Leaf SOH decline is about 5% in the first year and 1 to 2% for each year thereafter. There is partly determined by usage and partly by age: even if you did exceptionally low mileage you would not escape most of the decline, and there are some very high mileage Leafs around that haven't suffered much more than average. 5% annual loss for any year other than the first would be exceptionally high for UK Leafs.

2. There's some evidence that, when certain conditions are met, V2X usage actually reduces battery decline, as shown in a University of Warwick study. To simplify, the idea is that there is an optimum zone for SOC -- neither too high nor too low -- where battery decline is minimised, and some V2X usage patterns increase the amount of time the battery spends in this 'Goldilocks' zone.

That said, this is a trial exactly because there are many unknowns, and the exact extent of battery depreciation is one of them. The quid pro quo is that, in exchange for taking a punt, you get a V2H charger (and type 2 charge point) at about half the normal retail price.

Kind regards
- Garry

 

[Leaf306.6]

That's pessimistic, in my view.

1. Typical Leaf SOH decline is about 5% in the first year and 1 to 2% for each year thereafter. There is partly determined by usage and partly by age: even if you did exceptionally low mileage you would not escape most of the decline, and there are some very high mileage Leafs around that haven't suffered much more than average. 5% annual loss for any year other than the first would be exceptionally high for UK Leafs.

2. There's some evidence that, when certain conditions are met, V2X usage actually reduces battery decline, as shown in a University of Warwick study. To simplify, the idea is that there is an optimum zone for SOC -- neither too high nor too low -- where battery decline is minimised, and some V2X usage patterns increase the amount of time the battery spends in this 'Goldilocks' zone.

That said, this is a trial exactly because there are many unknowns, and the exact extent of battery depreciation is one of them. The quid pro quo is that, in exchange for taking a punt, you get a V2H charger (and type 2 charge point) at about half the normal retail price.

Kind regards
- Garry

I'd fully agree with all of this, and would emphasise the 'trial' element. The Indra offering isn't a fully ready-for-market product with all the reliability/support which would come with something like that. What they're running is essentially a data-gathering exercise to develop best practices, design and market research for what will be the real mass market product - a V2X charger that's CCS compatible. Once they have that, then the market opens up fully, and they will potentially no longer produce the Chademo units. And at the point they move to focus on CCS, there's zero guarantee of support/repairs for your old trial unit. And that could happen within the next 2-3 years, in fact it is likely. You're still left with a usable car, but the £1600 plus £500 (approx for the secondary charger if you don't already have one) will not get you a reliable return on investment if it develops a fault etc.

So go for the trial if you're into advancing technology, being an early adopter etc etc, but if your primary concern is saving money, a home battery is by far a more sure-thing than the Indra trial.

 

[SMLMcKenzie]

That's pessimistic, in my view.

1. Typical Leaf SOH decline is about 5% in the first year and 1 to 2% for each year thereafter. There is partly determined by usage and partly by age: even if you did exceptionally low mileage you would not escape most of the decline, and there are some very high mileage Leafs around that haven't suffered much more than average. 5% annual loss for any year other than the first would be exceptionally high for UK Leafs.

2. There's some evidence that, when certain conditions are met, V2X usage actually reduces battery decline, as shown in a University of Warwick study. To simplify, the idea is that there is an optimum zone for SOC -- neither too high nor too low -- where battery decline is minimised, and some V2X usage patterns increase the amount of time the battery spends in this 'Goldilocks' zone.

That said, this is a trial exactly because there are many unknowns, and the exact extent of battery depreciation is one of them. The quid pro quo is that, in exchange for taking a punt, you get a V2H charger (and type 2 charge point) at about half the normal retail price.

Kind regards
- Garry

I think it would be very sensible to take into account the worse case scenario though when working out whether or not the Indra charger is going to pay for itself quickly or if you might even end up making a loss.

 

[SMLMcKenzie]

I'd fully agree with all of this, and would emphasise the 'trial' element. The Indra offering isn't a fully ready-for-market product with all the reliability/support which would come with something like that. What they're running is essentially a data-gathering exercise to develop best practices, design and market research for what will be the real mass market product - a V2X charger that's CCS compatible. Once they have that, then the market opens up fully, and they will potentially no longer produce the Chademo units. And at the point they move to focus on CCS, there's zero guarantee of support/repairs for your old trial unit. And that could happen within the next 2-3 years, in fact it is likely. You're still left with a usable car, but the £1600 plus £500 (approx for the secondary charger if you don't already have one) will not get you a reliable return on investment if it develops a fault etc.

So go for the trial if you're into advancing technology, being an early adopter etc etc, but if your primary concern is saving money, a home battery is by far a more sure-thing than the Indra trial.

Exactly. I tried to find out about the length of warranty on the V2H charger and couldn't find any info. Would it be covered by standard consumer rights if it develops a fault? Maybe not because it isn't a consumer product. Say it has a 2 year warranty and it breaks a day after it expires. The OP would have only just broken even if their estimated savings are accurate.

 

[jacoscar]

I don’t understand why you need a second charger; can the Indra DC charger only take power out of the battery but not putting it back in? I hope one is not expected to charge the car with a charger during the night and then connect the DC one during the day

As for the warranty, if it breaks during the first year it’s in their interest to fix it; if it breaks later, well, what piece of equipment has more than 1 year warranty now that we’ve left the EU?

 

[GarryL]

I think it would be very sensible to take into account the worse case scenario though when working out whether or not the Indra charger is going to pay for itself quickly or if you might even end up making a loss.

In my case, your worst case scenario, of 5% loss per annum, would result in Nissan replacing my battery under warranty.

If I do end up on the trial, I will keep an eye on the SOH, but I'm fairly relaxed about it.

 

[GarryL]

I don’t understand why you need a second charger; can the Indra DC charger only take power out of the battery but not putting it back in? I hope one is not expected to charge the car with a charger during the night and then connect the DC one during the day

It's a trial. They aren't promising it will be an 100% smooth experience and are just being cautious, I expect, in case there is some downtime.

 

[SMLMcKenzie]

In my case, your worst case scenario, of 5% loss per annum, would result in Nissan replacing my battery under warranty.

If I do end up on the trial, I will keep an eye on the SOH, but I'm fairly relaxed about it.

Your case is much different to the OP if you would be using a 62kWh battery. I too wouldn't think twice about getting the indra charger if I had that battery capacity available. I would be able to power the whole house all the time and still have plenty of charge for driving. The payback time would be halved for the charger and you would have the peace of mind of the battery warranty. Using a 24kWh Leaf just doesn't make sense to me unless you treat it only as a home battery and never drive anywhere.

 

[jacoscar]

Your case is much different to the OP if you would be using a 62kWh battery. I too wouldn't think twice about getting the indra charger if I had that battery capacity available. I would be able to power the whole house all the time and still have plenty of charge for driving. The payback time would be halved for the charger and you would have the peace of mind of the battery warranty. Using a 24kWh Leaf just doesn't make sense to me unless you treat it only as a home battery and never drive anywhere.

The farthest I drive is 9miles (18 miles return) and it’s only 2 or 3 times a week; my daily home energy consumption is 8kWh
I’m pretty sure it would be enough

Also, on the days I need the car, it would be unplugged fully (or 80%) charged in the morning before it has time to discharge into the house
If I need it in the evening, it would be to drive 2 miles into the town centre and back

 

[Leaf306.6]

Your case is much different to the OP if you would be using a 62kWh battery. I too wouldn't think twice about getting the indra charger if I had that battery capacity available. I would be able to power the whole house all the time and still have plenty of charge for driving. The payback time would be halved for the charger and you would have the peace of mind of the battery warranty. Using a 24kWh Leaf just doesn't make sense to me unless you treat it only as a home battery and never drive anywhere.

I'd probably do it if I had a fairly healthy LEAF 30 personally, but not with a heavily degraded 24 - as you say, you're basically just going to be without a reasonably-functioning car most of the time. Could work if your mileage is extremely low and you only do short trips, or you had a second car.

 

[Leaf306.6]

The farthest I drive is 9miles (18 miles return) and it’s only 2 or 3 times a week; my daily home energy consumption is 8kWh
I’m pretty sure it would be enough

Also, on the days I need the car, it would be unplugged fully (or 80%) charged in the morning before it has time to discharge into the house
If I need it in the evening, it would be to drive 2 miles into the town centre and back

That actually sounds like a fair use case! As long as you're happy with all the 'trial' caveats people have mentioned. I.e. the small chance you're left with a big ugly charger on your wall that doesn't do anything after 2 years.

 

[GarryL]

Your case is much different to the OP if you would be using a 62kWh battery. I too wouldn't think twice about getting the indra charger if I had that battery capacity available. I would be able to power the whole house all the time and still have plenty of charge for driving. The payback time would be halved for the charger and you would have the peace of mind of the battery warranty. Using a 24kWh Leaf just doesn't make sense to me unless you treat it only as a home battery and never drive anywhere.

Well, I feel the opposite way: it doesn't make sense to buy the car just to use it as a home battery. It does make sense if you need the car anyway, as long as you don't need to drive it a lot or have a high energy home. It should do a little of both quite nicely.

Part of this is your attitude to risk. The risk averse tend to look at the worst thing that could possibly happen; this is very sensible for some people, particularly those who are counting the pennies; this trial is not for them. The risk-takers always hope for the best, are frequently disappointed, but sometimes win big. Most people are in the middle, trying to work what is most likely to happen.

Kind regards
- Garry

 

[SMLMcKenzie]

Well, I feel the opposite way: it doesn't make sense to buy the car just to use it as a home battery. It does make sense if you need the car anyway, as long as you don't need to drive it a lot or have a high energy home. It should do a little of both quite nicely.

Part of this is your attitude to risk. The risk averse tend to look at the worst thing that could possibly happen; this is very sensible for some people, particularly those who are counting the pennies; this trial is not for them. The risk-takers always hope for the best, are frequently disappointed, but sometimes win big. Most people are in the middle, trying to work what is most likely to happen.

Kind regards
- Garry

I suppose it is a relatively small risk of taking a loss if you were planning on buying a Leaf anyway and will only need it for short journeys plus you have another car available. Looking at the costs of the charger and ignoring the costs of the car, it would probably take the OP a year and a half to break even so long as electric prices stay around the 40p per kWh mark. Again, ignoring the actual car itself, the thing I would be most worried about is what happens if you can't get the 7.5p night rate to charge? Having said that though, I am pretty confident that it will be around in a year and a half.

This thread has got me reconsidering!

Edit: re-did the calculations and I couldn't get a pay back time of less than 2 years whilst always keeping the battery no lower than 50% charge so it doesn't make sense for me.

 

[wyx087]

Yeah, probably need to run it down to 30 or 40% to make the maths on £1600 V2H inverter to work. Definitely need another car for us Leaf 24 owners to make this trial work from mobility point of view.

In depth of winter, if for school pickup, we can allow our Leaf to go down to 30% to do 2 return trips to school comfortably without worry. In another words, 100% over provision. So my calculation says we can allow the house to use 11kWh from 95% downto 30% on Leaf 24 80% SoH, ~17kWh total usable. Typical day usage of our house is 10 kWh.

So that's 10 kWh per day of time-shifted power for 365 days => £1168 a year. payback in ~1.4 years using time.

I think OP situation is similar to us. My wife drives her Leaf to do school runs and maximum 15 miles return trip to shopping centres in the morning. I have a larger "family" car for everything else from my commute to family holidays. So if the need arises, we can always use the other car. We don't need to keep the Leaf functional as a car after cooking dinner.

 

[SMLMcKenzie]

Yeah, probably need to run it down to 30 or 40% to make the maths on £1600 V2H inverter to work. Definitely need another car for us Leaf 24 owners to make this trial work from mobility point of view.

30% on my Leaf would equate to about 18 miles range, which is only really about 15 miles in reality and I have at least 85% battery health. I would be extremely uncomfortable starting a journey with only 30% left even if I knew it was going to be a short one.

 

[GarryL]

Edit: re-did the calculations and I couldn't get a pay back time of less than 2 years whilst always keeping the battery no lower than 50% charge so it doesn't make sense for me.

Fair enough if it doesn't work for you. It is niche. However, is expecting requiring a sub 2 year payback time reasonable? After all, people are fitting solar or home batteries with paybacks of 5 to 10 years all the time.

 

[wyx087]

Yep, was quoted 11-12 years for solar to break even for us due to non-ideal roof. My crypto-mining efforts dropped a year or so off that thanks to 2020. Now looking at breakeven point in next year or two (8-9 years). But if I had put that money into TSLA stock in 2015........

Not all investment makes a good return, that's just life.

If I can't get on this V2H trial, I'll be getting a home battery that would be around 4-6 years ROI and I'm absolutely okay with that. But environmentally, it's MUCH better to make more use of that battery on the driveway.

 

[SMLMcKenzie]

Fair enough if it doesn't work for you. It is niche. However, is expecting requiring a sub 2 year payback time reasonable? After all, people are fitting solar or home batteries with paybacks of 5 to 10 years all the time.

The reason I specify 2 years is because I can only get a third party warranty on our Leaf for another 2 years. After I can no longer cover the car, I plan on selling it and don't want to feel forced to buy another Leaf just to recoup the money I put into buying a V2H charger.