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I think that Toyota have always been very conservative and slow to change, they've really focussed most of their effort in increasing reliability and durability, with only a relatively small amount of effort put into areas like performance cars. The Millennium car project was something completely new to Toyota, and a consequence of one man who was determined that Toyota should try and make a difference in terms of the environmental impact of their cars by the Millennium, Eiji Toyoda, then chairman of Toyota. He gave an order in 1990 that the G21 committee should invest in R&D, lest Toyota get left behind. The result was a massive investment, and a complete reform of Toyota's R&D departments between 1992 and 1993, with the focus of how to make a radically different and more economical drive train.

The result of that work turned into the Prius, a car that split the views of Toyota's management, with many being opposed to it as it seemed far too risky. The result was that the early Prius was a Japanese market only car, sold in very limited numbers, pretty much as a trial. The rest is history, as the car became a massively greater success than pretty much anyone in Toyota had expected. Eiji Toyoda saw the Prius as the start of a process to gain knowledge and experience of electric drive trains, but he retired as chairman before the Prius went into production and his successor, Shoichiro Toyoda, didn't share his enthusiasm at all, and pushed Toyota back to their traditional path of making reliable and durable cars, rather than technologically innovative cars.

That short sighted decision to pretty much throw away the innovation that Eiji Toyoda's 1990 order had started is pretty much at the heart of Toyota's present poor showing in the EV market. They got left behind by every other major car manufacturer, and only now are very slowly playing catch up. Anyone that's read the book about the development of the Prius, and knows just how hard it was to make the motor/generators and particularly the IGBT inverter modules (they had multiple explosions involving these during development) will realise that making a viable EV in the 1990s was a real uphill struggle. Toyota ended up having to manufacture many of the core material parts themselves, as there were no first or second tier suppliers with the capability.
 

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Discussion Starter · #42 ·
It's like Toyota went back to 2010/11 when there were no BEV's on the road, and took no notice of what the competition was doing (there was none) and just though that'll do, slap a Toyota badge on it, and spend bajillions on marketing it to idiots who will believe anything they read.

Perhaps in 7-8 years they'll have something better, or perhaps they'll have a solid state battery by then in a golf cart. :ROFLMAO:

It never fails to amaze me how people like you put EV in your name and yet bully EV's of certain company because you preach one company.

Your childish behavior only reminds me of when American companies laughed at Toyota back when it came to US with Corolla.
Theyre not laughing anymore, are they?

Tesla short-lived leadership position in EV will vanish in couple of years, not only from Toyota, but from Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai, Kia, Volkswagen, Renault, Stellantis, Ford, GM and I expect Toyota will be market leader by 2025. With or without plastic around fenders and no matter what you or I say.
 

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It never fails to amaze me how people like you put EV in your name and yet bully EV's of certain company because you preach one company.

Your childish behavior only reminds me of when American companies laughed at Toyota back when it came to US with Corolla.
Theyre not laughing anymore, are they?

Tesla short-lived leadership position in EV will vanish in couple of years, not only from Toyota, but from Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai, Kia, Volkswagen, Renault, Stellantis, Ford, GM and I expect Toyota will be market leader by 2025. With or without plastic around fenders and no matter what you or I say.
You think, from a standing start of 0, Toyota will be market leader in EVs in 3 years time?

Seriously? You believe that?

OK. I don't know what else to say to that.
 

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You think, from a standing start of 0, Toyota will be market leader in EVs in 3 years time?

Seriously? You believe that?

OK. I don't know what else to say to that.
read his quote, seem like tesla or elon is living rent free in his head
Toyota is not just behind Tesla, but many major EV manufacturers, yet, his seem to obsess with Tesla.
Every single post or thread he will turn it into Tesla
 

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I expect Toyota will be market leader by 2025
You expect Toyota to be leading what is about 2 years, 8mths from now based on sales of that bZ4X? Where their tech is 5-10 years behind the competition and the car is a fugly mess inside and out. I somehow don't see that happening.

Toyota are in trouble, they gambled the wrong way and now going to face that decision.
 

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You expect Toyota to be leading what is about 2 years, 8mths from now based on sales of that bZ4X? Where their tech is 5-10 years behind the competition and the car is a fugly mess inside and out. I somehow don't see that happening.

Toyota are in trouble, they gambled the wrong way and now going to face that decision.
Hard not to agree.

I hope they do see the light though and put their considerable manufacturing shoulder behind a push to an EV future, all jokes aside every manufacturer that brings EVs to market is fine in my boook.

We can argue until the cows come home about which EV is ‘best’, ‘worst’ or whatever, but the fact that we’ll be able to have that argument is a win.
 

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Discussion Starter · #49 · (Edited)
You expect Toyota to be leading what is about 2 years, 8mths from now based on sales of that bZ4X? Where their tech is 5-10 years behind the competition and the car is a fugly mess inside and out. I somehow don't see that happening.

Toyota are in trouble, they gambled the wrong way and now going to face that decision.
Toyota been building EV's since 1990's and hybrids much more complex than BEV and hydrogen even more.

I see no evidence Toyota is behind 5-10 years, this is just your imagination or wishful thinking. BZ4X is perfectly capable of facing other BEV's on sale currently.

BZ4X brings off roading and heavy winter driving capability, this is why they have plastic around fenders. In markets like Norway, where RAV4 is best selling ICE, BZ4X can expect high acceptance.

Toyota also have advantage of being respected global brand and this brings advantages in many markets.
They have dealership and support in every country, they can sell BZ4X worldwide, Latin America, Asia, Africa.

In 2025, I expect Toyota to top sales charts for EV with about same sales as Tesla currently. They will have 15 models on the market, one for each budget and need.
Market fragmentation will cause overall BEV sales increase but market share of each brand to decrease.
Suzuki should launch electric Vitara about that time, Italian brands like Alfa Romeo, Lancia, Ferrari, Lambo, all have electric cars in pipeline.
Germans and Koreans already pushing new EV models one after the other.
Within that jungle of choice, Toyota's 15 models will result in high volumes.

I suggest you look at BZ3X design, looks great to me, certainly makes Model Y look like an old car.
 

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Toyota been building EV's since 1990's and hybrids much more complex than BEV and hydrogen even more.

I see no evidence Toyota is behind 5-10 years, this is just your imagination or wishful thinking. BZ4X is perfectly capable of facing other BEV's on sale currently.

BZ4X brings off roading and heavy winter driving capability, this is why they have plastic around fenders. In markets like Norway, where RAV4 is best selling ICE, BZ4X can expect high acceptance.

Toyota also have advantage of being respected global brand and this brings advantages in many markets.
They have dealership and support in every country, they can sell BZ4X worldwide, Latin America, Asia, Africa.

In 2025, I expect Toyota to top sales charts for EV with about same sales as Tesla currently. They will have 15 models on the market, one for each budget and need.
Market fragmentation will cause overall BEV sales increase but market share of each brand to decrease.
Suzuki should launch electric Vitara about that time, Italian brands like Alfa Romeo, Lancia, Ferrari, Lambo, all have electric cars in pipeline.
Germans and Koreans already pushing new EV models one after the other.
Within that jungle of choice, Toyota's 15 models will result in high volumes.

I suggest you look at BZ3X design, looks great to me.
15 models launched and available for delivery, at scale, in the next 2 and a half years?

I’ll be surprised, and impressed, if Toyota manage that and top global BEV sales, or even be selling more BEVs than Tesla.

That’s not argument, that’s just sensible talk.
 

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Toyota been building EV's since 1990's and hybrids much more complex than BEV and hydrogen even more.

I see no evidence Toyota is behind 5-10 years, this is just your imagination or wishful thinking. BZ4X is perfectly capable of facing other BEV's on sale currently.

BZ4X brings off roading and heavy winter driving capability, this is why they have plastic around fenders. In markets like Norway, where RAV4 is best selling ICE, BZ4X can expect high acceptance.

Toyota also have advantage of being respected global brand and this brings advantages in many markets.
They have dealership and support in every country, they can sell BZ4X worldwide, Latin America, Asia, Africa.

In 2025, I expect Toyota to top sales charts for EV with about same sales as Tesla currently. They will have 15 models on the market, one for each budget and need.
Market fragmentation will cause overall BEV sales increase but market share of each brand to decrease.
Suzuki should launch electric Vitara about that time, Italian brands like Alfa Romeo, Lancia, Ferrari, Lambo, all have electric cars in pipeline.
Germans and Koreans already pushing new EV models one after the other.
Within that jungle of choice, Toyota's 15 models will result in high volumes.

I suggest you look at BZ3X design, looks great to me, certainly makes Model Y look like an old car.
Toyota may have an established worldwide presence and leading ICE manufacturer but they still need to find people willing to part with their cash and actually buy the bZ4X.

Toyota will put out decent EVs eventually but the bZ4X will be about as successful as the Lexus UX 300-e

Experienced EVers will blow raspberries at it as they know about better cars like the EV6 and know about the history of Toyota trying to slow down EV adoption. So they need gullible ICE customers who have brand loyalty and have a decent amount of disposal income and hope and pray they don't look at other manufacturers.

They aren't going to get 15 concepts into production and selling in less than three years to claw back any EV market let alone lead it like you suggest.

We all want more EV options so it's not a case of wanting them to fail, it's just a case the bZ4X is crap.
 

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Discussion Starter · #52 · (Edited)
Toyota may have an established worldwide presence and leading ICE manufacturer but they still need to find people willing to part with their cash and actually buy the bZ4X.

Toyota will put out decent EVs eventually but the bZ4X will be about as successful as the Lexus UX 300-e

Experienced EVers will blow raspberries at it as they know about cars like the EV6 and know about the history of Toyota trying to slow down EV adoption. So they need gullible ICE customers who have brand loyalty and have a decent amount of disposal income and hope they don't look at other manufacturers.

They aren't going to get 15 concepts into production and selling in less than three years to claw back any EV market let alone lead it like you suggest.

We all want more EV options so it's not a case of wanting them to fail, it's just a case the bZ4X is a crap.
Have you tried BZ4X?
None of reviews I have seen mention it's crap.
So looks like you are hoping they fail.

Convincing experienced EV drivers is not going to increase EV adoption because EV replaced by EV... and BZ4X is not meant as step up from say EV6, but even so, eventually EV6 customers will flock to Toyota and I can explain why further below.

You put a RAV4 driver in a Model Y, he's going to be lost. No gauges, no knobs, no buttons on steering wheel, panel gaps, things breaking left and right from windows to door knobs, phantom braking. RAV4 driver going to freak out and turn into EV skeptic.

Toyota not trying to reinvent the car like Tesla, they trying to bring BEV to masses, not by expecting people start preaching them, but by offering what they always have. Simple, accessible, dependable mobility.

You can ask yourself, why do people buy RAV4, Yaris, Corolla when competitors can offer cheaper cars with very similar or better specs.
Why is Africa and Middle East full and almost exclusive terrain ddof Toyota's when they could buy KIA's and Hyundai's cheaper?

Eventually you will see experienced EV drivers also flock to Toyota because manufacturers like Tesla and KIA/Hyundai are making same mistakes as legacy manufacturers did and still do, using customers for Beta testing. When things start failing all over on BEVs, they push customers right into Toyota's arms, and it doesn't matter that Toyota's cars are not as fast or as cool, they just want peace of mind.
If you look at Toyota s success, lots of people appreciate peace of mind, not by chance most taxi in Paris and Milan now are Toyota or Lexus despite being big car nations.

UX300e not really success, but good opportunity for Toyota to validate its BEV technology on an existing ICE platform. Lexus is not high volume brand anyway.

For some people like you, wow factor makes car not crap. A car that can do tootsie roll more important to you than wasting time back and forth to dealership to fix things. Cars that can't do tootsie roll is bad.
For most people, not crap means driving 300k miles without single breakdown or worry. Next time you sit by roadside in the cold and rain because your highly specced EV broke down, you can remember these words
 

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Eventually you will see experienced EV drivers also flock to Toyota because manufacturers like Tesla and KIA/Hyundai are making same mistakes as legacy manufacturers did and still do, using customers for Beta testing. When things start failing all over on BEVs, they push customers right into Toyota's arms, and it doesn't matter that Toyota's cars are not as fast or as cool, they just want peace of mind.
I hope Toyota come through and deliver on the blind faith you’ve put in them.

Meantime, other people will just sit back and watch how the market develops and buy the right car for them at the right time, regardless of brand.

It’s absolutely mad to be so wedded to a brand that you can’t see what else is going on, and end up cutting your nose off to spite your face.
 

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I also worry about Ford.
Mach E is the first EV I test drive, I found it heavy when cornering, the efficiency is a bit let down.
I found their centre console weird, feel like they just glue a knob on a iPad, the recent price hike will not help them either.
If I want a SUV EV, there are Ariya, ID.4, and I think best value in the price range Enyaq. If I want a crossover/hatchback, see no reason pick it over Ioniq5/EV6. As a big fan of Mustang, I found the 2.3L already insulting and this Mach E even worse, but that’s just personal preference
 

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For some people like you, wow factor makes car not crap. A car that can do tootsie roll more important to you than wasting time back and forth to dealership to fix things. Cars that can't do tootsie roll is bad.
For most people, not crap means driving 300k miles without single breakdown or worry. Next time you sit by roadside in the cold and rain because your highly specced EV broke down, you can remember these words
I'm not a reporter so I haven't tried the bZ4X but I do intend on test driving and seeing it in the flesh at some point. At the moment like most I can only go on videos, photos. I can see with my eyes the plastic wheel arches look crap, I can see from the photos of the interior the dashboard looks like something from 1980. From the reviews and stats I can see the acceleration and handling is meh.

Toyota can't gamble on all the other manufacturers having significant issues with their vehicles that customers go well I'll buy a Toyota then. It's like hoping to win a football match by the other team scoring an own goal, and hoping every team you face does the same as a way to rise to the top.

I don't want Toyota to fail, I've got nothing to gain from it. I'm a realist though, and when you look at the vehicle appearance, stats and price you have to wonder who in their right mind is going I'll have one of those. You're in fantasy land if you think the bZ4X is going to carry them to be leading the EV market by 2025. The 15 other concept cars they have planned are not going to be out next year or 2024 to give them the chance to rise to the top that fast. I personally think it'll be a complete flop, I know you think it'll lead them to victory so let's leave it there.

You've lost me at tootsie roll

Food Cork Font Ingredient Dessert
 

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Toyota been building EV's since 1990's and hybrids much more complex than BEV and hydrogen even more.
I see no evidence Toyota is behind 5-10 years.
If that's the case why have Toyota formed a JV with BYD to develop BEV's? Here's what the BYD Senior Vice President Lian Yu-bo said about it.

“We aim to combine BYD’s strengths in development and competitiveness in the battery electric vehicle market with Toyota’s quality and safety technology to provide the best BEV products for the market demand and consumer affection as early as we can.”
Its quite clear from his statement he doesn't see Toyota bringing much in the way of battery and EV tech to the party
 
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