Speak EV - Electric Car Forums banner
1 - 20 of 73 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
31 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
We've had our C zero for about 3 years and its been great , I love the simplicity and '2CV ness' of it . Its a perfect city run around for us , simple, been totally reliable, best car I've had , great fun . (we use a diesel for longer runs) Its 2012 35k ish miles, and just thinking how much longer we keep it , problem is what do we replace with if we can only spend £10k ish or less?.
We don't need a bigger car , but choice seems to be a 30kwh Leaf, battery owned , or one of the few later model Ion/C Zeros 2016-2018 . I'm a home mechanic, work as an Engineer, can do quite a bit of DIY , but don't fancy playing with changing batteries etc at home, also struggle with time, so in terms of long life and trouble free ( and cheap!) motoring, appreciate any advise you can offer as I don't know the Leafs as well.
Present C Zero probably worth £4-5k , its paid for itself over 3 years charging at work etc , an option is just to run it for 3 or 4 more years, maybe another 30-40k miles? range is still fine for us at 60-70+ (but 50 would be fine) , so far hardly noticed any degradation just a few miles maybe.
But aware of inverter issues and odd battery problem on older ones as age and mileage clock up.
Present C Zero car was almost immaculate underneath when we bought it , I spray painted and Tetrosyl treated it underneath, 3 years ago but i'm very aware how rust prone the earlier ones are, although ours is still fine ( almost immaculate) bodywork wise
But in terms of reliability I think the post 2013 model triplets have a few technical improvements , charging inverter , slightly improved battery technology/ life, not sure but maybe better under body protection for salted roads? . Think I can get a low miles 2016-18 one at about £8-9k . But I don't know the post 2013 triplets as well, or comparable Leaf, and how similar value ones compare in terms of technical reliability, cost risk etc ?
... appreciate any experienced views you may have :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,745 Posts
We've had our C zero for about 3 years and its been great , I love the simplicity and '2CV ness' of it . Its a perfect city run around for us , simple, been totally reliable, best car I've had , great fun . (we use a diesel for longer runs) Its 2012 35k ish miles, and just thinking how much longer we keep it , problem is what do we replace with if we can only spend £10k ish or less?.
We don't need a bigger car , but choice seems to be a 30kwh Leaf, battery owned , or one of the few later model Ion/C Zeros 2016-2018 . I'm a home mechanic, work as an Engineer, can do quite a bit of DIY , but don't fancy playing with changing batteries etc at home, also struggle with time, so in terms of long life and trouble free ( and cheap!) motoring, appreciate any advise you can offer as I don't know the Leafs as well.
Present C Zero probably worth £4-5k , its paid for itself over 3 years charging at work etc , an option is just to run it for 3 or 4 more years, maybe another 30-40k miles? range is still fine for us at 60-70+ (but 50 would be fine) , so far hardly noticed any degradation just a few miles maybe.
But aware of inverter issues and odd battery problem on older ones as age and mileage clock up.
Present C Zero car was almost immaculate underneath when we bought it , I spray painted and Tetrosyl treated it underneath, 3 years ago but i'm very aware how rust prone the earlier ones are, although ours is still fine ( almost immaculate) bodywork wise
But in terms of reliability I think the post 2013 model triplets have a few technical improvements , charging inverter , slightly improved battery technology/ life, not sure but maybe better under body protection for salted roads? . Think I can get a low miles 2016-18 one at about £8-9k . But I don't know the post 2013 triplets as well, or comparable Leaf, and how similar value ones compare in terms of technical reliability, cost risk etc ?
... appreciate any experienced views you may have :)
Zoe?
 

·
Registered
Nissan LEAF30
Joined
·
8,640 Posts
You can get a good LEAF30 for the same money with sensible miles on it, greater range and a battery warranty. I like the triplets but in terms or practicality and risk it seems a no contest.
 

·
richi.uk
Joined
·
312 Posts
A couple of random thoughts:
  • There's a general feeling that the 30 kWh Leaf battery actually degrades faster than the later 24s.
  • MY2013 and later triplets get the revised cells, yes. BUT the PSA clones get fewer of them. So if you can find a later Mitsubishi with 88 of the new cells, that sounds like a better proposition to me.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,906 Posts
2013 c-zero here. Great we car bar winter use, crap headlights and heater. Looking to chop it in for a used Leaf for more range and an extra seat :) Oh and a heater that works whilst on a rapid. A clock is a bonus too :ROFLMAO:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
101 Posts
If you don't need huge range. A super tidy, fully loaded Leaf Teka 24kw will serve you well. If you are getting a later one, and you have the time to seek out one with a super good condition pack (mine had only ever had 2 quick charges in 51k miles), then it will last years. Great heater, great LED lights, warm hands and bum. You'll be saving 3-4k over the 30kw, which would buy you a new battery in several years time.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
223 Posts
On the LEAF 24 kwh longevity I can't speak from personal experience but a close friend of mine has a 2014 LEAF. I was chatting to him on-line the other day and he still has all 12 battery bars and has noticed only a very small drop off in range. He tries to keep the charge between 20% and 80% and only uses rapids on long trips - annually basically. I think there is definitely something about the 24s being more robust battery wise than the 30s as well from reading these forums but also a fair bit of research when I was contemplating going EV about 18 months ago.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
371 Posts
Here's my input: consider a Soul - you may be able to get one within your budget. I've heard horror stories about Triplets and Zoes. We all know about Leaf battery degradation too, but I've yet to hear bad stories about the Korean stuff.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,906 Posts
Here's my input: consider a Soul - you may be able to get one within your budget. I've heard horror stories about Triplets and Zoes. We all know about Leaf battery degradation too, but I've yet to hear bad stories about the Korean stuff.
So far the triplet has by far been the most reliable small car with the lowest running costs I've ever owned. It might be basic but is so far ahead of the long line of VWs and other makes I've owned. Zoe's yeah barge-pole and all that, lol. I jest of course.
 

·
Registered
40kW Leaf Tekna & 22kW Zoë Q210 dynamique intens
Joined
·
743 Posts
I just picked up a 22kW Zoe for just over £4K.

It has a battery lease on it but only £60 a month which includes breakdown cover.

I’m probably going to pay that off in a year for about £2.5k.

It had a couple of minor issues, I put a pair of front sway bar drop links on it at the weekend to cure a knock for the princely sum of £18 and an hours labour on the drive.

Drives like a go kart and my wife loves it!
 

·
Registered
2020 Hyundai Kona 64kWh in very bright Acid Yellow :)
Joined
·
80 Posts
Someone was selling a 40kWh Zoe on here for £11k battery owned. I would have thought it was an ideal replacement, being small, newer, more toys, probably more comfortable, and with the 40kWh battery, probably more longevity (even if the battery degraded to 50%, it would still easily cover your needs!)


Edit: This was the one I saw - heated seats as well, for your £11 grand - seems a good deal to me?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
713 Posts
I got a 30kwh leaf Tekna for £10k recently. 16 plate with one owner 19,000 miles full Nissan history . Bought from a Nissan main dealer with 12 months warranty.

You can get a decent 30kwh leaf for £8 - £10k now. It's the best value in the price range functionality / range wise IMO. It's a proper 5 seat family sized car.

We use it as a city car it's been great. Incredible for the money really.

The battery in the leafs are no issue as long as you do your homework and get leafspy on it before buying .

If you look on leaf group on here there are old leafs with high miles that still have 12 bars.

The trend degradation on the 30kwh is 2% loss a year. The battery on mine SOH is over 90% still at 5 years old. This is common. I can easily get 100 miles range out of my leaf and it's 5 years old.

There was a guy with an Etron on here which was heading for 6% battery loss at 2 years old ! All be at at 40k miles. This is an expensive Audi EV which could well end up with Only 90% SOH on the battery at 3 years !

So there really is no issue with the leaf batteries in our climate providing you do your homework and buy a decent car.

Zoe's really don't have a great reputation reliability wise. Just look through the various owner threads on here. Someone posted a list of most reliable used EV recently . The Zoe wasn't even in the top 10 !
 

·
Registered
40kW Leaf Tekna & 22kW Zoë Q210 dynamique intens
Joined
·
743 Posts
Zoe's really don't have a great reputation reliability wise.
Neither do leaf’s, they have battery degradation issues if they have been used and abused by previous owners due to their lack of battery thermal management.

I own a leaf and a Zoe and the reality is that there are pros and cons for both, this is not as binary as some would have you believe.

They are both very good cars the Zoe wins hands down in the driving experience (they are like little go karts) I had a Clio sport 172 back in the day and when I jumped in our Zoe for the first time that big cheesy smile returned!😊

The 30kW leaf obviously wins in the range department, a leaf should be purchased with care and a good understanding of LeafSpy (especially if you are buying it privately)

A Zoe with a battery lease on it is super cheap and if you don’t need huge milage the battery lease is cheap and indemnifies you because Renault own the battery so any short comings are their problem.

I have been over my recently purchased 2014 Zoe with a fine tooth comb now over the last 3 weeks and replaced the drop links on the suspension myself.

Having looked at all the suspension and other wear items it’s actually in great condition it’s a really issue free car.

Thousands of these cars have been sold they are reliable and cheap to fix, sure there are a lot of questions on here about issues but it’s a forum people only post when they have an issue.

@cah197 has had I think 3 Zoe’s now (he may correct me) and last checked in having driven a early 24kW leaf 1000 miles from his home in Spain to Estonia earlier on today as memory serves.

He’s your man when it comes to experience of such things.
 

·
Registered
BMW i3
Joined
·
485 Posts
I got a 30kwh leaf Tekna for £10k recently. 16 plate with one owner 19,000 miles full Nissan history . Bought from a Nissan main dealer with 12 months warranty.

You can get a decent 30kwh leaf for £8 - £10k now. It's the best value in the price range functionality / range wise IMO. It's a proper 5 seat family sized car.

We use it as a city car it's been great. Incredible for the money really.

The battery in the leafs are no issue as long as you do your homework and get leafspy on it before buying .

If you look on leaf group on here there are old leafs with high miles that still have 12 bars.

The trend degradation on the 30kwh is 2% loss a year. The battery on mine SOH is over 90% still at 5 years old. This is common. I can easily get 100 miles range out of my leaf and it's 5 years old.

There was a guy with an Etron on here which was heading for 6% battery loss at 2 years old ! All be at at 40k miles. This is an expensive Audi EV which could well end up with Only 90% SOH on the battery at 3 years !

So there really is no issue with the leaf batteries in our climate providing you do your homework and buy a decent car.

Zoe's really don't have a great reputation reliability wise. Just look through the various owner threads on here. Someone posted a list of most reliable used EV recently . The Zoe wasn't even in the top 10 !
Yours has done very well in terms of degradation, unusually so I'd say.

From looking at the data in the the battery health thread I reckon circa 85% SOH for a Leaf24 and 80% for a Leaf30 at 5 years old is more typical (i.e. 3% deg PA for the 24 and 4% for the 30): The battery health thread!

Thus at 24 years old the average Leaf24 will have more capacity than the average Leaf30 ;-)

We had 3 x Leaf24's - great, solid cars, and was thinking of a Leaf 30 to replace the last one we had, but range looked a bit tight for a regular (100 mile) journey we have (didn't want to use the ICE if poss).

If I was spending £10K I'd be looking at the Soul - seemingly less battery degradation, 7 year warranty and they also look like solid bets. Obviously not so practical (big) as the Leaf but if you're OK with a triplet it'd seem massive!
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
367 Posts
Neither do leaf’s, they have battery degradation issues if they have been used and abused by previous owners due to their lack of battery thermal management.

I own a leaf and a Zoe and the reality is that there are pros and cons for both, this is not as binary as some would have you believe.

They are both very good cars the Zoe wins hands down in the driving experience (they are like little go karts) I had a Clio sport 172 back in the day and when I jumped in our Zoe for the first time that big cheesy smile returned!😊

The 30kW leaf obviously wins in the range department, a leaf should be purchased with care and a good understanding of LeafSpy (especially if you are buying it privately)

A Zoe with a battery lease on it is super cheap and if you don’t need huge milage the battery lease is cheap and indemnifies you because Renault own the battery so any short comings are their problem.

I have been over my recently purchased 2014 Zoe with a fine tooth comb now over the last 3 weeks and replaced the drop links on the suspension myself.

Having looked at all the suspension and other wear items it’s actually in great condition it’s a really issue free car.

Thousands of these cars have been sold they are reliable and cheap to fix, sure there are a lot of questions on here about issues but it’s a forum people only post when they have an issue.

@cah197 has had I think 3 Zoe’s now (he may correct me) and last checked in having driven a early 24kW leaf 1000 miles from his home in Spain to Estonia earlier on today as memory serves.

He’s your man when it comes to experience of such things.
I have to correct you there, Leafs are extremely reliable.

About battery degradation:
2011-2013 builds had excessive battery degradation in hot climates.
My twin 2012's have about 75% SOH after 9 years, less than 3% per annum. Most of them came off the boat with 97%, so about 2.5% per annum.
The motors are extremely efficient, you can easily average 130Wh/km if you slow down.
A 75% SOH is about 16kWh, so it's still very useable with a range of more than 100km / 60 miles in winter and 125km / 75 miles in summer.


The 30kWh don't necessarily degrade faster, it's essentially the same cells but bigger packs than the 2014- Leaf 24's, but the BMS can be all over the place, because of how it was programmed for a 24 kWh. It basically ignored the extra 6kWh.
This was fixed through an update but not everyone had it done.
Leaf 30's can have lower SOH due to higher mileage as the people who purchased the optional 30kWh paid the extra because they generally drove more and hence needed more capacity.
If you look in the marketplace, most Leaf 30's will have a higher average mileage.


n March 2018, Flip the Fleet (FTF) published a paper on the reported battery degradation of the 30 kWh Leaf. Since this report, Walter Larason of EVs Enhanced has carried out nine energy holding capacity tests on a dynamometer which showed that most of them held more energy in their battery pack than was reported by the car’s Lithium Battery Controller (LBC).

In June 2018 Nissan released a service campaign for its UK and USA customers, where the firmware of the car’s LBC can be upgraded in 30 kWh cars manufactured from December 2015 to August 2017. The upgrade applies to LBC firmware versions ending in 4A, 4B, 5A and 5B. This update purports to correct the reported State of Health (SoH) of the car and correct the underestimation of range.

We first compared the SoH reported by the LBC before and after the firmware update had been applied to 11 Leafs. After the firmware update was installed, reported SoH increased by up to 17 percentage points. This correction to SoH was bigger for cars with most degraded batteries, and we derived an equation that almost exactly predicts the change in SoH should the firmware upgrade be installed. We then applied this correction based on the equation to EVs Enhanced’s dynamometer test results to simulate a ’virtual update’ of their instrumentation to test whether the firmware would lead to better estimation of the energy holding capacity of the seven test vehicles with firmware 4A.

Once the correction was applied, there was a close match between the energy stored in the battery as measured on the dynamometer and the energy reported by the car’s LBC, for all seven vehicles with firmware 4A. We therefore conclude that the recently available update is a genuine and accurate fix to the reporting problem identified in FTF’s March 2018 report. One can think of this correction as an improvement in the accuracy of the car’s fuel gauge, including a recalibration of how big the “tank” a Leaf has when fully charged, and the way this degrades as the car gets older.
 

·
Registered
40kW Leaf Tekna & 22kW Zoë Q210 dynamique intens
Joined
·
743 Posts
I have to correct you there, Leafs are extremely reliable.

About battery degradation:
2011-2013 builds had excessive battery degradation in hot climates.
My twin 2012's have about 75% SOH after 9 years, less than 3% per annum. Most of them came off the boat with 97%, so about 2.5% per annum.
The motors are extremely efficient, you can easily average 130Wh/km if you slow down.

The 30kWh don't necessarily degrade faster, it's essentially the same batteries as the 2014- Leaf 24's, but the BMS can be all over the place, because of how it was programmed.
This was fixed through an update but not everyone had it done.

My experience of the leaf is a 2018 40kW that had only done 3700 miles when I purchased it it had a massively low cell nearly 100mV imbalance when I got it.

There was nothing actually wrong with the battery just haven’t been used properly, the BMS is very poor at both preventing or correcting such problems though I had to drive it 8000 miles and charge it 100% 6 times a week over 8 months to rebalance it.

I got it down to 5 mV on LeafSpy so it’s possible.

The problem is if you buy one that’s lost a cell and you don’t monitor it and drive a reasonable amount of annual miles and know how to sort it you are never going to bring it back into balance.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
367 Posts
My experience of the leaf is a 2018 40kW that had only done 3700 miles when I purchased it it had a massively low cell nearly 100mV imbalance when I got it.

There was nothing actually wrong with the battery just haven’t been used properly, the BMS is very poor at both preventing or correcting such problems though I had to drive it 8000 miles and charge it 100% 6 times a week over 8 months to rebalance it.

I got it down to 5 mV on LeafSpy so it’s possible.

The problem is if you buy one that’s lost a cell and you don’t monitor it and drive a reasonable amount of annual miles and know how to sort it you are never going to bring it back into balance.
Yes I've seen this pop up right and left on the Leaf 40's, which I'm following closely for a potential purchase.
I wonder what's causing this zombie effect and I wonder if it's always the same cells that are affected.
 

·
Registered
40kW Leaf Tekna & 22kW Zoë Q210 dynamique intens
Joined
·
743 Posts
Yes I've seen this pop up right and left on the Leaf 40's, which I'm following closely for a potential purchase.
I wonder what's causing this zombie effect and I wonder if it's always the same cells that are affected.
it seems pretty random, mine was cell one most others I’ve seen were somewhere in the middle of the pack.

Leafs that have been abused by lots of rapids are notorious for cooking their rear stack, this seems to be the bit that dissipates heat most poorly to the casing.

You will see lots of low cells on those batteries though.

Mine had never been rapid charged, it sat on someone’s driveway in Llandudno in wales doing not a great deal for the first 2 years of its life from what I can gather.

I think the trick when buying any used leaf is to look for one that has moderate annual miles on it, I use my leaf to run around the city for 5 hours a day averaging 60 - 90 miles daily.

I haven’t balance charged it in 3 months and I LeafSpy’d it the other day @ 11 mV if you use it regularly the BMS keeps the battery perfect.

Leafs don’t stand well at all in my somewhat limited experience.

I wouldn’t like to buy any low miles leaf without a knowing what I was doing with the benefit of 20:20 hindsight.
 
1 - 20 of 73 Posts
Top