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Discussion Starter #1
Not looking for a debate on the merits on any particular EV or Rapid hogging etc. However I need to adapt to changes in my local charging environment. The local Rapids are all besieged by Outlanders. There is even a Tesla Model S driver on the scene now charging on DC. He has an adapter to turn his AC socket into a DC, and does so because it "is a bit faster".

AC or CCS is rarely used all that much locally at Rapids. What I need is either a AC or CCS rapid charging converter/adaptor option for my Leaf. It would be a sound investment for me.

Have look on EVonestop and other such websites, but can't find anything, and it is not an area of EV'ing I am particularly familiar with to be honest. If anyone can recommend something for me that would be great.
 

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You can only use Chademo for rapid charging the Leaf - not AC or CCS. No adaptors are available. The Tesla adaptor converts Tesla DC socket to be able to use a Chademo rapid charger. Outlanders like the Leaf have Chademo rapid charging.

Interestingly Outlanders and other PHEVs don't tend to use rapid chargers that charge a £6 or more fee to charge.
 

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I don't think it's even doable?
Even if you did it would depend on the rapid charger allowing AC and a DC to be used simultaneously and the site's input voltages etc, so probably no better off. I've read some eVolts can share power but then at lower rates?
The only car I know of that can charge on an AC rapid to 43kW is the Renault Zoe Q210 and new Q90 models with their Chameleon technology.
 
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Discussion Starter #4
I don't think it's even doable?
Even if you did it would depend on the rapid charger allowing AC and a DC to be used simultaneously and the site's input voltages etc, so probably no better off. I've read some eVolts can share power but then at lower rates?
The only car I know of that can charge on an AC rapid to 43kW is the Renault Zoe Q210 and new Q90 models with their Chameleon technology.
Would work for me if there was an AC option. All the Rapids in the county where I live support AC and DC dual charging. Not sure about the CCS - never ever seen it being used once! The AC use is very rare. If there is a Tesla adaptor for changing from AC to DC at rapids, it must surely be possible to have the reverse DC to AC? Is it just that such a cable has not been invented yet. Maybe Tesla are just streets ahead of accommodating different rapid charging options for their customers by manufacturing and providing such conversion options?

What I am ideally looking for is something where I can take the tethered AC cable of a Rapid, plug it into my DC chademo socket on the Leaf (by using an adapter at the end of the tethered AC cable). Is someone with expertise able to say that is categorically not possible as in, this could not even be invented if it does not already exist?
 

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There are portable CHAdeMO chargers, that can output 22kW, and can be fed from three-phase AC. They cost many thousands of pounds. It would be trivial for one of these to have a type 2 socket that could plug a rapid AC charger into.
Portable Three-Phase 22kW to Rapid DC Charger
MDC22 » Designwerk GmbH » Denkfabrik der Elektromobilität

So, yes, it's possible. Not necessarily feasible.

Tesla Model S will charge at 11kW from a three-phase AC charge point, or 22kW for those factory fitted with dual chargers (an option that is no longer available due to design changes in the body design, there's no space to fit them). No adapter required, just a standard three-phase type 2 cable.
The Tesla CHAdeMO adapter will do protocol and connector conversion between CHAdeMO and Tesla's proprietary Supercharger protocol, and will do up to 50kW.

Many of the Chargeplace Scotland funded rapid chargers are APT chargers, and will charge one AC vehicle and one DC vehicle at a time, so somehow having a CCS connector available to charge your Leaf via some mythical protocol conversion won't help.
(many Siemens and ABB rapid chargers can actually charge all three connectors simultaneously, DBT rapid chargers typically can only do one outlet at a time.).
 

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Would work for me if there was an AC option. All the Rapids in the county where I live support AC and DC dual charging. Not sure about the CCS - never ever seen it being used once! The AC use is very rare. If there is a Tesla adaptor for changing from AC to DC at rapids, it must surely be possible to have the reverse DC to AC? Is it just that such a cable has not been invented yet. Maybe Tesla are just streets ahead of accommodating different rapid charging options for their customers by manufacturing and providing such conversion options?

What I am ideally looking for is something where I can take the tethered AC cable of a Rapid, plug it into my DC chademo socket on the Leaf (by using an adapter at the end of the tethered AC cable). Is someone with expertise able to say that is categorically not possible as in, this could not even be invented if it does not already exist?
Not going to happen, I'm afraid.

Even if you could use the Type 2, you'd be limited to the onboard AC-DC converter in your Leaf which would give you a maximum of 6.6 kW. Is this really worth it?

The Tesla Chademo adaptor doesn't convert AC. It uses DC supply. The Tesla can use AC Type 2, but will use its own onboard chargers to convert to DC, either at 11 kW, 16 kW or 22 kW depending on the version.
 

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Most APT units in Scotland should time-out once the state of charge reaches 80%. This doesn't take long on an Outlander due to its small battery and despite only charging at a maximum rate of 25kW.

The CHAdeMO connector will release at this point and can be safely transferred to your Leaf if the driver has gone AWOL. You may already know this!

Teslas, on the other hand, could sit on a rapid for far longer...
 

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AC or CCS is rarely used all that much locally at Rapids. What I need is either a AC or CCS rapid charging converter/adaptor option for my Leaf. It would be a sound investment for me.
A CCS DC to Chademo is surely feasible and with the German manufactures planning a "CCS only" roll out on mainland Europe, I can see an opportunity for someone to develop one. Maybe we will also see a CCS to Tesla adaptor too?
 

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A CCS DC to Chademo is surely feasible and with the German manufactures planning a "CCS only" roll out on mainland Europe, I can see an opportunity for someone to develop one. Maybe we will also see a CCS to Tesla adaptor too?
It's not viable communication and interlocking are totally different to build something that has a margin of safety and is user friendly is bordering on a impossible task.

I am sure it could be done for £15-20k a unit.
 

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It's not viable communication and interlocking are totally different to build something that has a margin of safety and is user friendly is bordering on a impossible task.

I am sure it could be done for £15-20k a unit.
Really. Wow. I assumed DC was DC and a bit of comms magic. Oh well..

Maybe Model 3 with have CCS DC and Type 2 Tesla so can use SC AND CCS DC. Two fingers up to Germans ;)
 

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Really. Wow. I assumed DC was DC and a bit of comma magic. Oh well..
The DC bit is easy, there's not much required to get AC to DC. But converting CAN (Chademo) to GreenPHY (CCS) and creating a situation where safety interlocks and both sides of the adapter are happy isn't that easy.

Tesla had alsorts of issues with CHAdeMO and generated couple of patents on how to handle a adapter where one side expects neutral where the other expects a live circuit (this is a gross simplification of the problem)

In short don't expect any adapters and if Tesla start support CCS which is highly likely given type approval changes they will just support it on the car and do some fancy switching depending on what you are connected to. I also expect the next gen Nissan EVS to support CCS for the very same reasons.
 

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The DC bit is easy, there's not much required to get AC to DC. But converting CAN (Chademo) to GreenPHY (CCS) and creating a situation where safety interlocks and both sides of the adapter are happy isn't that easy.

Tesla had alsorts of issues with CHAdeMO and generated couple of patents on how to handle a adapter where one side expects neutral where the other expects a live circuit (this is a gross simplification of the problem)
Yeah I can see this stuff isn't simple - getting everyone onboard CCS, which Tesla are sort of now helps...
 

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Maybe Model 3 with have CCS DC and Type 2 Tesla so can use SC AND CCS DC. Two fingers up to Germans ;)
I predict SC V3 to be CCS3.0 underneath and as such any vehicle capable of 350kW charging to be compatible. But that also means it will not be backwards compatible with older tesla's
 

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I predict SC V3 to be CCS3.0 underneath and as such any vehicle capable of 350kW charging to be compatible. But that also means it will not be backwards compatible with older tesla's
Nah. Tesla won't do SC stalls that won't work with current cars. Maybe some witchcraft to work out generation? Also won't allow non-Tesla to charge unless manufacturer has paid king's ransom to get access - I suspect Musk has backtracked from original offer as now realises SC is their best USP.
 

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Nah. Tesla won't do SC stalls that won't work with current cars. Maybe some witchcraft to work out generation? Also won't allow non-Tesla to charge unless manufacturer has paid king's ransom to get access - I suspect Musk has backtracked from original offer as now realises SC is their best USP.
Just wait and see.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Not going to happen, I'm afraid.

Even if you could use the Type 2, you'd be limited to the onboard AC-DC converter in your Leaf which would give you a maximum of 6.6 kW. Is this really worth it?

The Tesla Chademo adaptor doesn't convert AC. It uses DC supply. The Tesla can use AC Type 2, but will use its own onboard chargers to convert to DC, either at 11 kW, 16 kW or 22 kW depending on the version.
You have misunderstood, I don't want to use my Type 2 (AC) socket on the Leaf to charge at a Rapid. I want an adaptor that plugs into the DC Chademo socket, that at the other end will fit the tethered AC cable at the Rapid charger.

Tesla have made this in reverse (you can plug the DC Chademo tethered cable at a rapid charger into the Tesla's AC socket via their own adaptor which Tesla manufactured themselves and lets a Tesla draw 50kwh from the Rapid. This works perfectly well. Reading all the comments on here, it seems it is entirely possible to do similar for a Leaf to use AC charging at 22kwh, going through the on car DC socket. It also seems to just be a case of no one has invented the adaptor, or released such a thing to the market at a reasonable price.

Most APT units in Scotland should time-out once the state of charge reaches 80%. This doesn't take long on an Outlander due to its small battery and despite only charging at a maximum rate of 25kW.

The CHAdeMO connector will release at this point and can be safely transferred to your Leaf if the driver has gone AWOL. You may already know this!

Teslas, on the other hand, could sit on a rapid for far longer...
Those brands of EV which you mention are precisely why I wish to invest in an adaptor. The Rapids are getting busy with DC (slow charging) cars at approx. 7-9kw at a Rapid for Outlanders, often 2 of them at a time are there, 1 queuing for a charge. Outlanders are very common where I live. They will never use a Type 2, as they can only draw something like 3.5kw from it due to only being fitted with 16A (shocking I know). There is only 1 local Tesla admittedly, but if its charging and an Outlander is waiting, I am sadly better of going looking for a Type 2 and 7kw charging.. Time outs on the ABB chargers are 55 minutes. Waiting 1.5hrs - 2hrs to get on a Rapid would not be uncommon.

You are also relying on the EV's using the Rapid moving on and not plugging straight back in. Some sneakly Outlander drivers have a trick of coming back to their car after 20 or 30 mins and disconnecting then starting a new charge (presumably to make it look like they have just arrived). I have arrived at a Rapid to find it busy like this once or twice, checked the time charging, went away to do something and came back to find the same car on a new session.

The Rapid hogging issue is much more of an issue at winter, slow charging time of year. If the cost of getting an adaptor is going to be ridiculous I would make more sense for me to get an AC charging Zoe. At the moment I am very concerned about the DC Chademo availability for Scotland as a whole, it has become over crowded with seemingly the vast majority of EV's now using DC. There are real supply and demand issues. Must be great to be an AC charging Zoe?
 

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Tesla have made this in reverse (you can plug the DC Chademo tethered cable at a rapid charger into the Tesla's AC socket via their own adaptor which Tesla manufactured themselves and lets a Tesla draw 50kwh from the Rapid. This works perfectly well
Yes but it is DC to DC - In Europe Tesla use the Type 2 connector which supports DC, albeit Tesla modified to cope with higher current.
 

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Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
You'd have to get a Chademo charger powered of the ac output. Not an easy set up. Just saw this on alibaba, though not recommending it, but someone might be interested in the development Wholesale mobile portable fast DC CHAdeMO charger - Alibaba.com
Although not what I am looking for, that interests me also. What I would like to understand is what the charge rate is at home for pre charging it. Ideally it would be slow/low something like 3-4kw at most so there is potential to use a large Solar PV system to charge it.

EDIT: Maybe this is old news but have just discovered the AA and RAC are to apparently be equipped with emergency portable rapid chargers, that charge at a rate of 1 mile per minute on a 2013 Leaf as an example.

LINK 1: Charging Solutions | EV Rescue, Portable EV Charging Unit
LINK 2: SYMPHONY EV | Electric Vehicles | Electric Vehicle Conversion | Charging Solutions
 

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You have misunderstood, I don't want to use my Type 2 (AC) socket on the Leaf to charge at a Rapid. I want an adaptor that plugs into the DC Chademo socket, that at the other end will fit the tethered AC cable at the Rapid charger.

Tesla have made this in reverse (you can plug the DC Chademo tethered cable at a rapid charger into the Tesla's AC socket via their own adaptor which Tesla manufactured themselves and lets a Tesla draw 50kwh from the Rapid. This works perfectly well. Reading all the comments on here, it seems it is entirely possible to do similar for a Leaf to use AC charging at 22kwh, going through the on car DC socket. It also seems to just be a case of no one has invented the adaptor, or released such a thing to the market at a reasonable price.



Those brands of EV which you mention are precisely why I wish to invest in an adaptor. The Rapids are getting busy with DC (slow charging) cars at approx. 7-9kw at a Rapid for Outlanders, often 2 of them at a time are there, 1 queuing for a charge. Outlanders are very common where I live. They will never use a Type 2, as they can only draw something like 3.5kw from it due to only being fitted with 16A (shocking I know). There is only 1 local Tesla admittedly, but if its charging and an Outlander is waiting, I am sadly better of going looking for a Type 2 and 7kw charging.. Time outs on the ABB chargers are 55 minutes. Waiting 1.5hrs - 2hrs to get on a Rapid would not be uncommon.

You are also relying on the EV's using the Rapid moving on and not plugging straight back in. Some sneakly Outlander drivers have a trick of coming back to their car after 20 or 30 mins and disconnecting then starting a new charge (presumably to make it look like they have just arrived). I have arrived at a Rapid to find it busy like this once or twice, checked the time charging, went away to do something and came back to find the same car on a new session.

The Rapid hogging issue is much more of an issue at winter, slow charging time of year. If the cost of getting an adaptor is going to be ridiculous I would make more sense for me to get an AC charging Zoe. At the moment I am very concerned about the DC Chademo availability for Scotland as a whole, it has become over crowded with seemingly the vast majority of EV's now using DC. There are real supply and demand issues. Must be great to be an AC charging Zoe?
If Outlanders are plugging back in at a rapid, let ChargePlace Scotland know. Definitely not cricket. They will speak to driver re. etiquette.
Rapids can be hit or miss for AC-charging Zoes as the car locks the cable. As such, AWOL Zoe drivers drawing minimal charge can be a nuisance. At least the CHAdeMO or CCS will (eventually) release!
 
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