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Discussion Starter #1
Ok, a newbie question here...couldn’t find the answer in a quick search so I’ll pose the question.

At some park and rides there are EV chargepoints.

I had always thought that the idea of the public charge points was that you charged up, then vacated the space so someone else could use it.

but the whole point of P&R is that you park up and take the tram/bus/metro etc into town.

so is it usual/accepted practice at P&R charge points to rock up, plug in and go to town for the day, even though you’ll only be charging for say the first hour?

we are awaiting delivery of our first EV and it would be useful to know what is and is not considered to be the “right thing” under these circumstances ??
 

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Yep, that’s about the size of it, as long as they’re the slower destination type chargers.

If they’re Rapid chargers, then it’s a bit different, but they really shouldn’t be putting those at park and ride sites really, unless it’s just a convenient place with sufficient power and space to act as a rapid charge hub too.

Putting rapids on the same site will lead to misuse or confusion though, and possibly overstay fees as well dependent on the charge point operating company and its policies.
 

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in general, yes, but I’d just query the “only be charging for the first hour” point. I’ve got a 40kwh Leaf; visited Salisbury recently arriving with about 50% charge, had no qualms plugging into the Park & Ride 7kw charger even though I would probably only charge for half the day, because I needed the charge.

However, if I had driven in from nearer, arriving with say 80% charge, so easily able to get back home without charging, I wouldn’t have hogged the charger all day just for a free 20% top up.
 

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There are so many scenarios here:
  • Fast or Rapid charge points
  • Length of charge vs. length of stay
  • "Need" for the charge
The simplest way would be to equip the majority of the parking slots with fast charge points and to cost by the length of time connected. Perhaps then there could be a service of someone paid to move cars when their charge is complete?
 

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There are so many scenarios here:
  • Fast or Rapid charge points
  • Length of charge vs. length of stay
  • "Need" for the charge
The simplest way would be to equip the majority of the parking slots with fast charge points and to cost by the length of time connected. Perhaps then there could be a service of someone paid to move cars when their charge is complete?
It really isn't this complicated. Destination chargers are provided to be used for the length of your stay at a destination. If it's a shopping centre that may be an hour or two. If you're at a P+R or station then this would likely be all day. There's nothing you can do about moving your car when the charge is complete because you've parked and ridden! How is it fair to charge for the length of time connected to a destination charger? The time you're parked is covered by the parking cost anyway and the cost of electricity is charged, or not depending on the charge point providers reason for installing them, on a unit cost basis.

The issue is not about whether cars should be moved when the charge is complete, but the provision of greater numbers of detination chargers.

As to having a service where you leave your car keys to allow someone to shuffle your car around a car park, there's not a chance that I'd do that.
 

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The issue is not about whether cars should be moved when the charge is complete, but the provision of greater numbers of detination chargers.
This. This every time. It's what drives so much of the debate on this forum. It's not about etiquette or hogging a charger or your current SoC. The lack of destination chargers has caused and will continue to cause problems until there is a destination charger in every car park with the number of destination chargers increasing as demand increases. Load balance them, bill per kWh, don't have overstay fees for destination over and above standard parking restrictions.

That way rapids become used for what they should be used for... "get as much juice in the battery as quickly as possible so I can continue my journey".
 

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If you're at a P+R or station then this would likely be all day. There's nothing you can do about moving your car when the charge is complete because you've parked and ridden! How is it fair to charge for the length of time connected to a destination charger? The time you're parked is covered by the parking cost anyway and the cost of electricity is charged, or not depending on the charge point providers reason for installing them, on a unit cost basis.
The biggest cost in the short term is not the cost of the electricity but that of installing the infrastructure. To retrofit EV charging to most existing car parks is prohibitively expensive so it makes financial sense to cost based on time and encourage maximum use of an expensive asset.
An alternative to someone physically moving the car would be someone plugging/unplugging the cars from tethered leads with a number of cars clustered around charge points. Whether this is more efficient than load sharing is open to debate.
The lack of destination chargers has caused and will continue to cause problems until there is a destination charger in every car park with the number of destination chargers increasing as demand increases.
Agreed. Sadly cost and infrastructure remain issues.
 

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is it usual/accepted practice at P&R charge points to rock up, plug in and go to town for the day, even though you’ll only be charging for say the first hour?
What sort of car are you getting? P&R are normally slow chargers, maximum 16A (at least in Sweden) and even my PHEV takes 3,5h to charge fully at that rate, an EV takes considerably longer, so what's the point of plugging your car in for an hour? Anyway, P&R is just what it is, you park and then ride a train or bus or something else. If there is no maximum parking time rule then you do as you like. The problem is that tere are not enough chargers, not how long people park. As long as the rules are followed, you can't really comment the behaviour. Limiting the parking time until the car is charging would be counterproductive, since if I want to, I can set the charging current to very low, which would give me extra time and you'd still not get my space.
 

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It has been estimated that if EV charging is installed at the same time a car park is constructed, it costs around £150 per space to install. Retrofitting will be more expensive, but the cost of doing so will decrease if a large number of EV spaces are installed up front (as the cost is often driven by getting the power into the building rather than anything else.)

A car needs about 11.5m^2 of space (4.8m x 2.4m), plus manouvering room, so around 20m^2 per space. That puts the average parking space at ~£10k to £20k in a multistorey:

I think it would be safe to say around 1/4 of that for a surface only car park, but still, about 20x more than the cost for charging infrastructure.

It really isn't that expensive to put charging in. If there's demand for it and it brings more customers in, car parks will do it.
 

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I see the figures differently. For an open ground level carpark it costs around £4-5k per space outside of London, and retrofitting costed EV charge points around £2k each. So the cost is significant, particularly for cash strapped local authorities with existing carparks and concerns about ongoing maintenance.
 

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@dk6780 But that's primarily because they're installing 2~4 charging points at a time.

If they took the Norwegian approach, say, and installed 100+ charging points into a car park, the cost per charging point would reduce considerably, as most of the work is not scaled with the number of charging points. (You still need an upgraded mains supply; you still need to do groundworks to install cable ducts, but you can do 50 in a day instead of 4.)
 

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I'd favour a large number of 3kW points in park and rides. Better a larger number of 3kW than half that number of 7kW.
They all use load balancing so even if they all are 7kW it doesn't mean that 7kW is available all the time. It is better that they output a high power when possible than always low power. Besides, even 3kW require load balancing...
 

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The one I have used had both rapid and standard chargers so I just sat for 20 mins on rapid then moved to standard charger bay and left car to charge. I think that is good etiquette.
 

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so is it usual/accepted practice at P&R charge points to rock up, plug in and go to town for the day, even though you’ll only be charging for say the first hour?
So assuming your name is somewhat descriptive....

Somewhere like Elland Road Park and Ride has 1 Rapid 50kW charger and 8+ "fast" 7kW chargers. Those 7kW ones are the ones where it's reasonable to plug in for a few hours because a) there's more of them and b) it takes a few hours to get a significant charge.

Plugging into the rapid charger and going into town is likely to result in you getting charged overstay fees.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Well spotted @Weebull .

wasn't really thinking of Elland Road, would either drive into town or go by train when I go to Leeds.

Was more thinking of the Ingliston P and R at Edinburgh where I’d almost certainly need a charge of some sort and there are loads of chargers (but I don’t know if they are rapid or 7s as last time I went we weren’t contemplating an EV, I just saw them and thought “interesting”)
 

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Well, you asked in post #8...hence I told you!
Sorry, I could not connect your comment to the post above, so I did not know what it had to do with it. Anyway, connecting your car for an hour makes no sense, unless it is a real emergency and you only have a few km to your home or final charging destination. It doesn't matter that you have fast charging available in the car, the P&R is not giving you normally more than 16A (3.7kWh), and as I said, that's the maximum. If too many cars are charged at the same time then it is reduced and can be very low, depending on the maximum possible current of the installation.
 
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