[Mark J Constable]

Yep. Moved it. Set an alarm.

You should stay in a better class of joint where you can get the concierge to do it.

 

[Jason Wallace]

Paid for by who?

Paid for by the landowner who ordered and then had installed the chargers and then either absorbed by them or charges passed on as they deem fit.

If this were to happen then I really fail to see what the issue is, or why EV charging points cannot be required or at least recommended to a developer during the planning process.

 

[Jason Wallace]

So the tax payer should fund a network of dedicated charge points for short range PHEVs?

Certainly the tax payer should be continuing to subsidise charging but (in my opinion) not by installing their own charging infrastructure but but subsidising businesses in their area to do do.

I don't have an issue with a PHEV using a charge point any more than I do a Tesla using it, so long as the point is used responsibly.

 

[fenlander]

That's absurd.

Not really - just being considerate.

I was using the only charger in the region on my way to the Leaf Owners event in 2012. There was a very good chance that someone else would be traveling through that region in the early hours to make the same event. Leaving my car plugged in while I slept and tucked into my bacon & eggs would have caused them to miss the opportunity to get enough charge to make the event.

Would I do it now? Probably not given the rapid charge network, but if I was in a charging desert then yes.

I find it fascinating how people have responded to it though. "Screw you, I'm alright" is alive and well

 

[Paul]

Perhaps we can put off this day by common sense and courtesy, putting ourselves in the other persons shoes when we can...

This works both ways.

I wouldn't and don't expect an EV driver to have to go out of their way, to change their behaviour or be inconvenienced for me, just because I arrived at a charger after them. If they can buy an all day parking ticket for that spot, or there's no restriction, it's fair game and I'm not upset or angry someone is taking advantage of it.

The only type of "charger blocking" I find can be annoying is ICE cars in marked EV bays or rapid chargers blocked for long periods of time by non-charging vehicles of any kind.

Then again, even I blocked one side of a rapid once when a short meeting went in a very unexpected direction and went on for over an hour, and I totally forgot about the car. It happens, and I think we should be accepting of that too.

And yes I felt bad when I realised what I'd done so I don't pre-judge "charge blockers" and assume they're arrogant and selfish somehow.

 

[fenlander]

Paid for by the landowner who ordered and then had installed the chargers and then either absorbed by them or charges passed on as they deem fit.

If this were to happen then I really fail to see what the issue is, or why EV charging points cannot be required or at least recommended to a developer during the planning process.

You've got to persuade the land-owner that it is worth their money when the charge points see such little per-kWh use every day. The PHEV problem is that they take such little power due to small batteries, but block the charger for the same length of time as a BEV if nobody is prepared to return to their car.

I have no idea how you address that problem. It's only PHEVs that really need all these charge points at park&ride and stations - BEVs will typically have enough range to make home charging more appropriate. PHEVs need that top-up to continue to be 100% electric. So we are in a slightly odd situation where those that don't need the charge are those that want it most, but will pay less for it.

 

[fenlander]

I wouldn't and don't expect an EV driver to have to go out of their way, to change their behaviour or be inconvenienced for me, just because I arrived at a charger after them.

Which is why I bought a Rex.

 

[fenlander]

The poll is posed in a fairly emotive way, which doesn't help with getting useful responses. "Blocking" is an emotive word.

Yeah, it's an emotive subject. Not sure how else you describe it.

 

[Paul_Moxhay]

I have no idea how you address that problem. It's only PHEVs that really need all these charge points at park&ride and stations - BEVs will typically have enough range to make home charging more appropriate. PHEVs need that top-up to continue to be 100% electric. So we are in a slightly odd situation where those that don't need the charge are those that want it most, but will pay less for it.

I think this hits at the very heart of the motives as to why government is installing (or subsedising) so many fast charging posts rather than just rapids.

Remember... they installed the charging stations not for our convenience but to reduce petrol/diesel miles driven. To the government it matter not that it is in a BEV or PHEV... the objective here for them is to reduce petrol/diesel use and hence reduce CO2 emissions.

Sometimes I think we forget the overall government objective... our convenience is not really a factor.

 

[Edd Beesley]

You've got to persuade the land-owner that it is worth their money when the charge points see such little per-kWh use every day. The PHEV problem is that they take such little power due to small batteries, but block the charger for the same length of time as a BEV if nobody is prepared to return to their car.

I have no idea how you address that problem. It's only PHEVs that really need all these charge points at park&ride and stations - BEVs will typically have enough range to make home charging more appropriate. PHEVs need that top-up to continue to be 100% electric. So we are in a slightly odd situation where those that don't need the charge are those that want it most, but will pay less for it.

I was recently discussing charging provisions with the facilities manager for a shopping centre, which has installed about 200 charging bays. They are marked up as ev friendly, but not EV only, so other cars can park there but with 200 points, across four levels, there's always some free. There is no extra fee to charge, it's absorbed into the general parking fees. The units are not even monitored, no comms whatsoever. The amount of power used, in context of a five level car park with I guess a few thousand spaces, is minuscule. They've been there at least five years, and I've never found one that doesn't work.

They are waterproof three pin sockets, and they are wonderful.

That's the future for widespread public charging, huge numbers of dumb sockets. Type2 sockets (without comms) are still a little pricey but they will come down. Once they are less than £100 it makes sense to fill 25% of your car park with them, and put all parking up by 5p an hour. I think it's fair to say no one will be so horrified at the extra 5p that they will turn round and leave your car park. The extra revenue will more than cover any electricity costs, and with no RFID, back office, data plans, support staff, you'll quickly recoup the dumb socket cost. EV drivers will be happy, if they find a dead unit, go to another space, plug in and stop worrying.

 

[Paul_Moxhay]

That's the future for widespread public charging, huge numbers of dumb sockets.

I cannot disagree more with that statement.

IMO the only future long term for EVs is rapid charging. The whole concept of plugging in whenever you stop works now for the few early adopters that currently have EVs and it will probably work in the short to mediaum term until rapid charging and battery technology improves but I do not see a future long term for charging posts at 13A anywhere. It is just too slow and people will not want to have to plug in everywhere they go. We do it because we are early adopters and have different motivations but most of the public just want a car they can drive and not have to fuss with charging cables every time they stop.

I will not plug in to a 13A socket anywhere except in an emergency. No point... it is just too slow... and I feel that the vast majority of the general public (not us early adopters but the genuine public not at all interested in EVs... they just want a hassle-free car) will feel the same.

13A, or even 7kW, charging everywhere is no long term solution IMO. It works for now and I am pleased to see that a car park has so many sockets. It has to help in the short term. But IMO the real and long-term answer to the problems of public charging are to be found in rapid charging and longer range batteries.... then people won't need or want to use slow charging solutions.

 

[fenlander]

I was recently discussing charging provisions with the facilities manager for a shopping centre, which has installed about 200 charging bays. They are marked up as ev friendly, but not EV only, so other cars can park there but with 200 points, across four levels, there's always some free. There is no extra fee to charge, it's absorbed into the general parking fees. The units are not even monitored, no comms whatsoever. The amount of power used, in context of a five level car park with I guess a few thousand spaces, is minuscule. They've been there at least five years, and I've never found one that doesn't work.

They are waterproof three pin sockets, and they are wonderful.

That's the future for widespread public charging, huge numbers of dumb sockets. Type2 sockets (without comms) are still a little pricey but they will come down. Once they are less than £100 it makes sense to fill 25% of your car park with them, and put all parking up by 5p an hour. I think it's fair to say no one will be so horrified at the extra 5p that they will turn round and leave your car park. The extra revenue will more than cover any electricity costs, and with no RFID, back office, data plans, support staff, you'll quickly recoup the dumb socket cost. EV drivers will be happy, if they find a dead unit, go to another space, plug in and stop worrying.

Ok, let's work those numbers.

Blanket increase of 5p per space in a 2000 space car park generates an additional £100 an hour.

25% of 2000 is 500 spaces, all with 7kW charging. If their costs are (say) as low as 10p per kWh that costs 70p per hour, per space. Total max costs of £350 an hour.

You've got to assume 3kW or very low utilisation for those numbers to add up. You just opened that car park up to a potential loss of £2.2 million a year

 

[AndyG]

Someone who is arriving at the hotel the next morning for a conference?

Anyone who turns up at at hotel at the crack of dawn and complains that they can't get a charge because it is being used is bang out of order.
If I have booked a room I would have done so after researching that the hotel had a charger and therfor would have booked that as well. I am paying for a service and not an inconveniance. The hotel would have installed the charger for the same reason as ie the swimming pool, to make me pick them over someone else. Making me get out of bed to move my car is not going to happen or the next time I would stay somewhere else. If on the other hand reseption told me when I arrived that another guest also need to charge I would hope that we could park next to each other and work it out between ourselves, but never at 3am

 

[fenlander]

Anyone who turns up at at hotel at the crack of dawn and complains that they can't get a charge because it is being used is bang out of order.

Nobody is complaining or demanding. I moved the car because I expected someone else to need it very early the next day. Nobody yelled at me to do so.

 

[Edd Beesley]

Ok, let's work those numbers.

Blanket increase of 5p per space in a 2000 space car park generates an additional £100 an hour.

25% of 2000 is 500 spaces, all with 7kW charging. If their costs are (say) as low as 10p per kWh that costs 70p per hour, per space. Total max costs of £350 an hour.

You've got to assume 3kW or very low utilisation for those numbers to add up. You just opened that car park up to a potential loss of £2.2 million a year

Utilisation, as evidenced by the attitudes in this thread, would be low. If I am shopping all day, or indeed working in the shops. I might draw for three hours, and shop for a further two or work for a further five. Or even as an EV driver, if I don't need a charge, not use the plug.

How much do you think the complete back office, RFID, helpline, billing etc costs are for 500 chargemaster posts...?

 

[fenlander]

Utilisation, as evidenced by the attitudes in this thread, would be low. If I am shopping all day, or indeed working in the shops. I might draw for three hours, and shop for a further two or work for a further five. Or even as an EV driver, if I don't need a charge, not use the plug.

How much do you think the complete back office, RFID, helpline, billing etc costs are for 500 chargemaster posts...?

No, you are thinking about today. Small batteries, hardly any cars. Fast forward a bit.

Free energy and everyone has somewhere to store it. This is a recipe for disaster.

 

[Julian Thomas]

Yeah, it's an emotive subject. Not sure how else you describe it.

I just think if you'd asked it in a more neutral way, you'd have got more accurate answers. Using the word "block" will influence the way people answer (but not the way they actually behave).

 

[Edd Beesley]

I cannot disagree more with that statement.

IMO the only future long term for EVs is rapid charging. The whole concept of plugging in whenever you stop works now for the few early adopters that currently have EVs and it will probably work in the short to mediaum term until rapid charging and battery technology improves but I do not see a future long term for charging posts at 13A anywhere. It is just too slow and people will not want to have to plug in everywhere they go. We do it because we are early adopters and have different motivations but most of the public just want a car they can drive and not have to fuss with charging cables every time they stop.

I will not plug in to a 13A socket anywhere except in an emergency. No point... it is just too slow... and I feel that the vast majority of the general public (not us early adopters but the genuine public not at all interested in EVs... they just want a hassle-free car) will feel the same.

13A, or even 7kW, charging everywhere is no long term solution IMO. It works for now and I am pleased to see that a car park has so many sockets. It has to help in the short term. But IMO the real and long-term answer to the problems of public charging are to be found in rapid charging and longer range batteries.... then people won't need or want to use slow charging solutions.

Sure, more rapids for enroute charging, we all want that, but public/destination is important too, for convenience.

i.e. I drove to Birmingham yesterday. Apparently my Leaf can't do 63 miles anymore (yay) so had to stop at Corley. Once at Birmingham it would have been more convenient to use destination charging, as my stop at Corley on the way home would have been less than 5 minutes. As it was, my stop at Corley was about 30 (and the inevitable Starbucks).

Until I have a car which can do in excess of 126 miles that trip will require charging, and the most convenient place to do it is while the car is parked up.

Even for something with the range of a tesla this is true. Fancy popping down to London from Sheffield? I'd park up at Stanmore tube station, about 2.5 hours drive, don't particularly want to stop on the way, and it's only 155 miles. Charge at Stanmore for 8 hours or whatever and when I get back to the car I can get back home without stopping to refuel.

It's all about convenience (I'm lazy )

 

[Edd Beesley]

No, you are thinking about today. Small batteries, hardly any cars. Fast forward a bit.

Free energy and everyone has somewhere to store it. This is a recipe for disaster.

It's not free, they're paying to park (and charge). If they only wanted electricity they are paying a massive premium.

 

[Julian Thomas]

I'd park up at Stanmore tube station, about 2.5 hours drive, don't particularly want to stop on the way, and it's only 155 miles. Charge at Stanmore for 8 hours or whatever and when I get back to the car I can get back home without stopping to refuel.

It's all about convenience (I'm lazy )

This is pretty much what I was talking about a couple of weeks ago we drove to Stanmore, where there were about 10 EV spaces (all ICEd unfortunately). They're obviously not designed for people to stand next to their car for 4 hours until it's finished charging, they're designed knowing that people will plug in, jump on the train, and come back when they have finished shopping/working/theatre, etc. that may be 2 hours or more after the car has finished charging.