[Edd Beesley]

This is pretty much what I was talking about a couple of weeks ago we drove to Stanmore, where there were about 10 EV spaces (all ICEd unfortunately). They're obviously not designed for people to stand next to their car for 4 hours until it's finished charging, they're designed knowing that people will plug in, jump on the train, and come back when they have finished shopping/working/theatre, etc. that may be 2 hours or more after the car has finished charging.

Yeah, last time I tried to use them (they were all iced) I was staying on London overnight after a gig. I would have been "blocking" them all night. Tsk.

 

[Steve Thayne]

Yes I agree with destination charging sometimes being a better option then diverting to a rapid. Particularly the 7kw, 30 miles an hour rate of charging. This is good enough to go to the supermarket, whiz round and have enough charge to drive my 17 miles home. No waiting. No break in routine.

There is already a garden centre with rows of these posts. And I can imagine provision becoming commonplace. Like Sky tv in pubs - despite the cost many pubs choose to pay for it for the footfall.

But in the mentime. I hope for all of us charging when we need to, making the resource available when finished, when we can. Or at least leaving contact details.

In the sticks 7kw posts ARE our rapids

 

[tim_battersby]

Destination charging works for a good number of my trips too. I live 55 miles from Newcastle and York. I drive straight there, plug in and leave the car whilst I shop or whatever.

I could instead rapid charge on the way there or back, but why add 30 mins to my otherwise hour long journey?

 

[fenlander]

It's not free, they're paying to park (and charge). If they only wanted electricity they are paying a massive premium.

It is free. The incentive is to take as much as you can while parked, so people with large batteries will take the full rate for the entire time.

Free doesn't work as a model at all. The one thing that we do learn from this thread is that people see no problem with taking what is there.

 

[fenlander]

There is already a garden centre with rows of these posts. And I can imagine provision becoming commonplace. Like Sky tv in pubs - despite the cost many pubs choose to pay for it for the footfall.

Only Sky TV doesn't open the pub up to potentially unlimited costs once technology has advanced just a little bit. It wont be long before those chargers see 100% utilisation with people 'topping-up' large batteries.

 

[AndyG]

I cannot disagree more with that statement.

IMO the only future long term for EVs is rapid charging. The whole concept of plugging in whenever you stop works now for the few early adopters that currently have EVs and it will probably work in the short to mediaum term until rapid charging and battery technology improves but I do not see a future long term for charging posts at 13A anywhere. It is just too slow and people will not want to have to plug in everywhere they go. We do it because we are early adopters and have different motivations but most of the public just want a car they can drive and not have to fuss with charging cables every time they stop.

I will not plug in to a 13A socket anywhere except in an emergency. No point... it is just too slow... and I feel that the vast majority of the general public (not us early adopters but the genuine public not at all interested in EVs... they just want a hassle-free car) will feel the same.

13A, or even 7kW, charging everywhere is no long term solution IMO. It works for now and I am pleased to see that a car park has so many sockets. It has to help in the short term. But IMO the real and long-term answer to the problems of public charging are to be found in rapid charging and longer range batteries.... then people won't need or want to use slow charging solutions.

Paul….
I think you are right and wrong

Charging as a means of continuing a trip must be via Rapids, as slow charging is a waste of time.
But destination charging has its place and is also by far and away the best most time affective way of charging. It takes 30-90 mins for todays cars to recharge on a rapid, it only takes about 2 minuets (to plug and unplug) if you are away for your car for a reason. The cost of installing a single 32a post would allow for many many more ZCW type posts to be installed, if a carpark at train station's etc had whole floor's of those then "blocking" would never be an issue

 

[Paul]

I don't think people are as selfish or have as much time to spare "stealing energy" as some seem to think they do/will.

For example I have free energy locally, I can take enough to fill my battery within 60 minutes including the journey and it could last me a week or more.

I don't, because I just want to drive my car like a regular car and get on with my life. That hour is worth more to me than a few quids electricity, and a day is worth much more than that. I'm sure most EV drivers are in a similar situation and would sooner charge to fit their routine rather than go out of their way to grab free fuel.

 

[fenlander]

I don't think people are as selfish or have as much time to spare "stealing energy" as you think they do/will.

For example I have free energy locally, I can take it within 60 minutes including a journey and it could last me a week or more.

I don't, because I just want to drive my car like a regular car and get on with my life. That hour is worth more to me than a few quids electricity, and a day is worth much more than that. I'm sure most EV drivers are in a similar situation and would sooner charge to fit their routine rather than go out of their way to grab free fuel.

This isn't stealing or going out of your way. It's just accepting that free fuel is there for the taking at no extra cost. You have to budget assuming all charging points in a car park will deliver full rate for as long as a car is parked there - that's inevitable once batteries get larger. Who isn't going to plug in and take a few £ of electricity while doing whatever they are doing? We *know* this to be true based on the comments from MK people - who didn't plug in when it was free?

We've ended up in some confused discussion where we are assuming the current mix of cars and use pattern, trying to persuade ourselves that it won't change and all we need is a few pence an hour to cover all the costs.

 

[Julian Thomas]

Which all feels like a really good reason to charge by kWh? People pay for what they use?

 

[fenlander]

Which all feels like a really good reason to charge by kWh? People pay for what they use?

It all feels like a good reason to charge by something. What that is we disagree about, but we do agree that 'free' is broken.

Short term (with limited chargers and cars with small batteries) I think time must be accounted for. Long term (unlimited chargers, large batteries) per kWh must rule. So we are back to both.

I'm having a hard time getting my head around the same people that tell me Tesla are going to release a cheap car with a mega-watt-hour battery (or whatever it is), but that electricity should be free for them to top it up whenever they park. Surely once everyone owns one of these cars we'll all just fill up, drive home and then power the house from the car.

 

[PaulMorris]

@fenlander your poll is fatally flawed.

The answer of course is it depends.

For me, a rapid 10-30 minutes end of the scale.

A fast charger in a car park, well for as long as I pay the parking fee obviously!

 

[AndyG]

This isn't stealing or going out of your way. It's just accepting that free fuel is there for the taking at no extra cost. You have to budget assuming all charging points in a car park will deliver full rate for as long as a car is parked there - that's inevitable once batteries get larger. Who isn't going to plug in and take a few £ of electricity while doing whatever they are doing? We *know* this to be true based on the comments from MK people - who didn't plug in when it was free?

We've ended up in some confused discussion where we are assuming the current mix of cars and use pattern, trying to persuade ourselves that it won't change and all we need is a few pence an hour to cover all the costs.

But we are where we are, there is no point trying to prodict the future.
There is no way a Tesla drive is going to go out of his way to spend 13 hours charging just to get £5-£8 of electricity for free, they own a £50k-£100k car.

It is the charging infastructure that is wrong not the user. We are the customers, every other business providing a service finds out what their customer wants and trys to provide that as close as possible. What they dont do is say "have this like it or lump it, oh and by the way we paid for the infastructure already through your taxes but we are still going to rape you with over inflated costs"

 

[fenlander]

@fenlander your poll is fatally flawed.

The answer of course is it depends.

That's why I said to assume a single 32A charging post. Not a rapid.

For me, a rapid 10-30 minutes end of the scale.

I don't think anyone disagrees with that.

A fast charger in a car park, well for as long as I pay the parking fee obviously!

That is the problem part - is that parking fee really covering your dedicated use of the charger?

 

[fenlander]

But we are where we are, there is no point trying to prodict the future.
There is no way a Tesla drive is going to go out of his way to spend 13 hours charging just to get £5-£8 of electricity for free, they own a £50k-£100k car.

No need to go out of their way. Every car park will offer free charging. Top up for free while you do anything. Drive home, power the house.

 

[AndyG]

No need to go out of their way. Every car park will offer free charging. Top up for free while you do anything. Drive home, power the house.

I thought this servey was about time not money, your point makes your whole survey a complete waste of time, if every carpark has charging points then there will be no need to worry about blocking.
You need to go back and either start a with a new question or work out what you actually want to know.

IMO there aren't many EV owners that will complain about paying a fair price for what they use, and I still say that everbodys time is far to valuable to worry about trying to save a few pound of electricity at the cost of their time.

 

[Paul]

It all feels like a good reason to charge by something. What that is we disagree about, but we do agree that 'free' is broken.

Not in all cases. "Free" could (and possibly does) work very well as an incentive or loss-leader to get EV owners to your venue instead of someone else's.

 

[fenlander]

I thought this servey was about time not money, your point makes your whole survey a complete waste of time, if every carpark has charging points then there will be no need to worry about blocking.
You need to go back and either start a with a new question or work out what you actually want to know.

IMO there aren't many EV owners that will complain about paying a fair price for what they use, and I still say that everbodys time is far to valuable to worry about trying to save a few pound of electricity at the cost of their time.

I think you misunderstood. It's other people who think 'free' unlimited chargers is a viable business model, not me. I've discovered what I wanted to know

 

[fenlander]

Not in all cases. "Free" could (and possibly does) work very well as an incentive or loss-leader to get EV owners to your venue instead of someone else's.

Yep. So long as they factor the true cost in - not some fantasy version.

 

[AndyG]

I think you misunderstood. It's other people who think 'free' unlimited chargers is a viable business model, not me. I've discovered what I wanted to know

Your question is spacificaly about "blocking" time and not cost.
How can you have discovered anything with a question asked in the way your is?

 

[Julian Thomas]

I'm having a hard time getting my head around the same people that tell me Tesla are going to release a cheap car with a mega-watt-hour battery (or whatever it is), but that electricity should be free for them to top it up whenever they park.

Tesla are offering their EV owners free electricity for life, I thought? Albeit from super chargers rather than slow/fast chargers. Again, not relevant to the question about "blocking" non-rapids.

I wish you had phrased the original question in a more neutral fashion, along the lines of "how soon do you return to your vehicle on a non-rapid charger?" And offered multiple responses such as "I wait by it", "I set a timer to remind me to go back straight away", "I finish what I'm doing and return later that day", "I would leave it charging overnight whilst asleep in a hotel", etc... I think you'd have got far more useful (and accurate) responses then...