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Hello everyone,,
I for some reason started to come down on the side of the "yes there's climate change, but its probably not human related" argument, but I watched this afternoon a film called "Merchants of Doubt" - and I'm now going to recommend it to anyone and everyone - Of course every side can be biased, and unfortunately also, every statistic and piece of evidence can be manipulated https://19216801.onl/ https://routerlogin.uno/https://192168ll.link/, but the film shocked me to the core, and I feel like doing a little bit toward saving the planet !!!
 

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And if you want a cheap argument for people, ask if they are happy to support terrorist with oil money IE buying oil from Saudi Arabia. keep the money home :p no need to buy energy from aboard :)
 

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Hello everyone,,
I for some reason started to come down on the side of the "yes there's climate change, but its probably not human related" argument, but I watched this afternoon a film called "Merchants of Doubt" - and I'm now going to recommend it to anyone and everyone - Of course every side can be biased, and unfortunately also, every statistic and piece of evidence can be manipulated, but the film shocked me to the core, and I feel like doing a little bit toward saving the planet !!!
Inertia is a hard thing to turn around. Before Greta Thunberg arrived on the scene scientists had been chanting from the same hymn sheet, but it never got past the news editors. Therefore it didn't take much to keep the lid on how bad climate change is. Even now many people are in denial, mostly thinking it's always "someone else" whose polluting the world more, as they drive children to school, do the shopping, go to work on the motorway. Taking responsibility needs a wake-up call.

But then as you say the fossil fuel companies sow seeds of doubt. There is a famous memo that was leaked from tobacco companies featuring the phrase "doubt is our product." They didn't have to prove tobacco was healthy, they didn't even have to prove smoking wasn't unhealthy. All they had to do was propagate doubt & confusion.

I get the same issue with promoting veganism. Meat & dairy are funded by taxpayers to promote positive messages "eat more cheese, drink more milk, buy local meat." All of it is nonsense, imo, all sowing seeds of doubt that flies in the face of science. But without a Greta Thunbery it is dificult to get it into public conciousness.

Of course covid19 has been one mega issue that has focused so many people's attentions on these issues - and globally. So there will be more changes, but it is a long haul battle, fighting fear, doubt and uncertainty.
 

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I will never understand veganism. Fair enough if you are against the slaughter of animals for food, but what can possibly be wrong in drinking milk or eating cheese?

Anyway, wildly off topic for a forum on electric vehicles.
 

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I will never understand veganism. Fair enough if you are against the slaughter of animals for food, but what can possibly be wrong in drinking milk or eating cheese?

Anyway, wildly off topic for a forum on electric vehicles.
The mass agricultural practices used for dairy are arguably more cruel than the slaughter of animals for their meat.

I turned vegetarian around a year ago and really tried to go vegan too but found it difficult. It's massively hypocritical of me to not eat meat for ethical reasons, but continue to eat dairy products....
 

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Me too Dr Eskimo. We are trying to massively reduce our consumption of all animal products.
 

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I will never understand veganism. Fair enough if you are against the slaughter of animals for food, but what can possibly be wrong in drinking milk or eating cheese?

Anyway, wildly off topic for a forum on electric vehicles.
I will never understand veganism. Fair enough if you are against the slaughter of animals for food, but what can possibly be wrong in drinking milk or eating cheese?

Anyway, wildly off topic for a forum on electric vehicles.
Every, absolutely every cow, goat etc produces milk for one reason only: to provide milk for their babies aka calves. Their babies are denied that milk entirely and separated from their mothers at birth to be fed formula replacement. A cow naturally lives to the age of 25. Instead dairy cows are repeatedly and forcefully made pregnant 3 to 5 times to ensure they lactate. This stops when they are deemed spent, by which farmers mean they don't lactate sufficient enough to be profitable. These spent cows are then all sent to slaughter to become burgers. A fine reward after a foreshortened life of slavery.

And any male calves? No milk from them so they are either killed immediately or raised for veal for six months.

I consider the dairy industry as the meat industry, a wolf in sheep's clothing.

What I have stated above is true for 99.99%. There is one farm I know of in the UK tbat allows calves to stay with mother. This is done with EU subsidy to offset the losses as an experiment.
 

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The mass agricultural practices used for dairy are arguably more cruel than the slaughter of animals for their meat.

I turned vegetarian around a year ago and really tried to go vegan too but found it difficult. It's massively hypocritical of me to not eat meat for ethical reasons, but continue to eat dairy products....
(For reference I'm not even a vegi)
I did some finger in the air maths and worked out the milk industry produces about 30 to 45% off the UKs meat.

I'd like to say a lot off the info about this I got from a friend who is as non Veggie as you get and works in the milk industry.... Ironic I know.

I beleive I saw a top 10 things that you reduce co2 globally and the first 9 were livestock related.
Getting an EV was way down in 44th.

Admittedly many were... "Don't eat beef from formerly amazonian grassland, or fed on soya shipped from there to the US"
 
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Hello everyone,,
I for some reason started to come down on the side of the "yes there's climate change, but its probably not human related" argument, but I watched this afternoon a film called "Merchants of Doubt" - and I'm now going to recommend it to anyone and everyone - Of course every side can be biased, and unfortunately also, every statistic and piece of evidence can be manipulated, but the film shocked me to the core, and I feel like doing a little bit toward saving the planet !!!
From your description it sounds like a film emphasising that people are easily mislead and don't look for their own information and test the facts and arguments put in front of them, but rely on authority figures.

So, this doesn't actually sound like a film about climate change, from what you say there.

Well, we see that time and time again here, embedded so deep in people's psyche they cannot shake it ... 'you're not a doctor/scientist/virologist/economist, donald', whatever the comment of the day is.

It's the same principle. People want to believe authority figures, and prefer to doubt and ignore those that are not but who use their own powers of deduction.

You can't have it both ways, people. You can either continue to 'appeal to authority' in your fallacious arguments, or not. If you do, though, then you are merely reflecting the same ways as thinking as this film seems to (sounds like it does) illustrate.

Don't believe anyone. Take your own word for it, no one else's. A person with 50 years experience might simply have been getting it wrong for 50 years. If someone tells you something, 'test' the information, see if it still looks right from all POVs, and if there are any that it does not look right from, then adopt that POV as your own and drill into it.

Don't be afraid to 'hurt' a hypothesis/proposal, they are there to be probed. If you do and someone says 'pah, you are just being argumentative', or similar, then you have to keep probing on that spot, see what they are hiding/not answering.
 

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Hello everyone,,
I for some reason started to come down on the side of the "yes there's climate change, but its probably not human related" argument, but I watched this afternoon a film called "Merchants of Doubt" - and I'm now going to recommend it to anyone and everyone - Of course every side can be biased, and unfortunately also, every statistic and piece of evidence can be manipulated, but the film shocked me to the core, and I feel like doing a little bit toward saving the planet !!!
For reference fossil fuel co2 has a different radioactive signature.
It called heavy co2 I think(no idea why... Maybe its "heavy maaaan" - niel from the young ones)
So Yep.... It humans.

Prime example is this 3% bullshit that gets quoted.
 

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I beleive I saw a top 10 things that you reduce co2 globally and the first 9 were livestock related.
Getting an EV was way down in 44th.

Admittedly many were... "Don't eat beef from formerly amazonian grassland, or fed on soya shipped from there to the US"
The biggest impact you can have to reduce CO2 and also reduce the effect you have to damage the planet is not to have children.
 

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I beleive I saw a top 10 things that you reduce co2 globally and the first 9 were livestock related.
Getting an EV was way down in 44th.

Admittedly many were... "Don't eat beef from formerly amazonian grassland, or fed on soya shipped from there to the US"
This is a bit unfair. Sounds like a vegan wrote the list. For most people, going vegetarian will reduce your carbon footprint by about 1-2 tonnes CO2e per year.

If the car does >10,000 miles a year, and you are usually the only one sat in it, and you live in the UK where grid electricity is not that carbon intensive, then the savings on CO2e per year for changing to an electric car are similar to going vegetarian.

My sources are the Guardian calculator, Mike Berners Lee´s How Bad Are Bananas book, various articles on the internet, websites that calculate it for you like Carbon Calculator, and I´ve even done the car calculations myself.
 

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I will never understand veganism. Fair enough if you are against the slaughter of animals for food, but what can possibly be wrong in drinking milk or eating cheese?

Anyway, wildly off topic for a forum on electric vehicles.
1. The animals are in any case slaughtered once their milk/cheese production declines.
2. They still suffer quite a lot.
3. Animal rights arguments about animal freedom etc.
 

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I agree with Andy that many people are in denial about the seriousness of climate change.

Whenever I read what scientists are saying or read a book on climate change I notice a big gap to the mainstream media. Only the Guardian is just about doing a good job, the rest are in denial and so are most people.
 

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The biggest impact you can have to reduce CO2 and also reduce the effect you have to damage the planet is not to have children.
How do we stop 100% of climate change? Kill the entire human race might come closer. Children don't make decisions in Parliament in any country that I know of. Adults run fossil fuel companies. So why pick on children?
 

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How do we stop 100% of climate change? Kill the entire human race might come closer. Children don't make decisions in Parliament in any country that I know of. Adults run fossil fuel companies. So why pick on children?
They grow up and make decisions in Parliament?
 

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It's a common bit of sleight of hand to count every descendents' emissions against the parents. In which case, Genghis Khan had the highest emissions in known history, despite his wholesale slaughter of humanity causing a drop in global temperatures.

Suggesting people stop having children is just pointless nihilism. If you choose to do so, that's up to you to become an evolutionary dead end. There are plenty of people who don't give a fig about emissions and are less well educated who will happily have plenty more kids, wiping out your sacrifice.

I'd suggest it's better to have a small number of children and teach them to live responsibly and to influence others to do so.
 
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