Speak EV - Electric Car Forums banner

1 - 20 of 27 Posts

·
I'm not crazy, the attack has begun.
Joined
·
29,860 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
It's occurred to me that if one can buy a Tesla with bitcoins, and (looking this up) estimates propose its currently requiring ~15,000kWh to mine a bit coin, and taking the US CO2 footprint of ~400g.CO2/kWh, then to buy a two-bitcoin Tesla (unintended pun there, just happens to be where the prices are) already emits 12 tonnes of CO2 just in the act of buying it!

That is (just the manufacture of the currency to buy it!) comparable with the whole-life emissions from a diminutive European diesel city car.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,304 Posts
You're probably about to get an enslaught of pro bitcoin people arguing the carbon footprint is nothing like that and its all powered from hydro and and and and......

v

people that have read some of the headlines and cringe at the thought Musk has pushed so much into a coin that uses more electricity than quite a few countries and the bitcoins that Tesla puchased created more co2 than all the Teslas ever made have saved.

I suspect the answer is somewhere between the two.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,167 Posts
It's occurred to me that if one can buy a Tesla with bitcoins, and (looking this up) estimates propose its currently requiring ~15,000kWh to mine a bit coin, and taking the US CO2 footprint of ~400g.CO2/kWh, then to buy a two-bitcoin Tesla (unintended pun there, just happens to be where the prices are) already emits 12 tonnes of CO2 just in the act of buying it!

That is (just the manufacture of the currency to buy it!) comparable with the whole-life emissions from a diminutive European diesel city car.
Bitcoin is a bit less predictable than that.

Firstly, it's mined globally and a coin from the USA is different in CO2e to one from Iceland or China.

Then there's the issue you're looking at only the very latest energy required, but that bitcoin by design becomes more difficult to mine over time, consuming more energy. So early coins had a tiny, tiny CO2e compared to today.
 

·
Registered
Renault Zoe 50
Joined
·
20,876 Posts
I don't know about anyone else, but I'm killing it with DOGE.

Not long before I can afford a Tesla!
 

·
Premium Member
VW ID.3 Worst Edition & Tesla M3 LR
Joined
·
6,647 Posts
It’s also about far more than just CO2, when comparing the CO2 generated in that particularly niche way of purchasing to a ‘diminutive European diesel city car’.

I’ve no issue at all with provoking thoughts around the whole thing by the way, I think when you start to work out the CO2 involved with many daily things we take for granted, it’s an eye opener.

Even the hosting and use of this forum for instance.
 

·
Registered
Renault Zoe 50
Joined
·
20,876 Posts
Anyone calculated @donald’s CO2 footprint on this forum.

(Obviously vastly reduced now). :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
262 Posts
Then there's the issue you're looking at only the very latest energy required, but that bitcoin by design becomes more difficult to mine over time, consuming more energy. So early coins had a tiny, tiny CO2e compared to today.
As such, Bitcoin is a pyramid scheme. The only people who it was ever any use for were those that got in early and used it for person-to-person transactions. Anything with a blockchain by definition doesn't scale well if it's forever being divided and every transaction ever makes the whole blockchain bigger and unmanageable.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,167 Posts
As such, Bitcoin is a pyramid scheme. The only people who it was ever any use for were those that got in early and used it for person-to-person transactions. Anything with a blockchain by definition doesn't scale well if it's forever being divided and every transaction ever makes the whole blockchain bigger and unmanageable.
I disagree with the pyramid scheme analogy. Whilst you're right that early adopters have made big money, you could say the same of stock traders in Apple and Tesla. Bitcoins volatility mean that much later investors have made significant earnings from it.

And ultimately the only way the early adopters can make money is to sell their investment.
 

·
I'm not crazy, the attack has begun.
Joined
·
29,860 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I think 'pyramid scheme' runs out of meaning and some new term will be devised in forthcoming decades for what bit coin it.

In fact, such schemes of the future will probably be referred to in the pejorative as 'a bitcoin scheme' once it all collapses.

Consider; any other currency, if one 'invests' in a unit of that currency and then sits on it, it's value goes down.

Anyone's ancestor who, in the 18th century, traded 'a pound of sterling silver' for a note from the Bank of England 'I promise to pay the bearer one pound' would be sore if it was only worth a pound today. (Notwithstanding I suspect an 18th Century bank note would be worth a lot now!).

The point is, bitcoin is clearly 'wrong'; a medium of exchange is not a 'sustainable investment vehicle' for growth. Short term gains may be had by currency trading, but the currency has to buy and represent stuff.

Hence I don't think it is right to suggest Tesla is trading 'old' bitcoins so there is no 'more' CO2. Apart from the CO2 for the process of trading itself, and the more transactions the more that adds up, if one is selling new product into an 'economy' (for the sake of describing bitcoin) then they are engaged in growing the total issued currency value.

I wish bitcoin and Tesla well, but both still look like 'SouthSea Bubbles' to me. I mean, the very idea of currency is bizarre and if the idea of it can motivate people to do what Tesla is doing, nothing wrong with that in itself.... I guess?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,304 Posts
The argumenent is its supposed to protect against fiat currency (that run by governments) as governments can effectively print money devaluing the currency against others, but when they all do it they all devalue roughly the same and end up where they started from. But... its not so simple... the problem with devaluing a currency is if you want to buy goods from abroad then you need to exchange currency and if you simply doubled the amount of money you had in your country (extreme example) then you need twice as much to buy something from a stable foreign gov in their currency. So where do you put your money to prevent the devaluation... well you could just buy that foreign currency. Its what the wealthy do in many countries with high inflation, they sometime buy dollars, historically a more generic commodity like gold or they buy assets. Its no accident a lot of Russians invest in London. So bitcoin could be seen as another gold, but even gold isn't like it was now gold isn't used to underpin state currencies (which is kind of why it was worth what it was worth). The thing about a commodity and where it differs from coin, like gold, platimum, is that people need to buy that for industrial purposes so it retains some generic value as a commodity. Bitcoin however is just a barting platform for tokens.

The pyramid selling accusation comes from the bomardment of people telling you to buy. The value will keep going up if they can get more people to put money into it. The total worth of bitcoin is the net inflow of money into the coin, it will only increase if that net inflow increases. As it has no intrinic worth, to get rich, you want people to buy into something that is fundementally worthless beyond the money put in. Its no surpise people are therefore promoting that as much as they do.
 

·
Registered
Renault Zoe 50
Joined
·
20,876 Posts
Meanwhile gold is 1 ton of CO2 per ounce mined.

How does that compare to DOGE Coin?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,628 Posts
Doge is powered by weed clouds anyway
 

·
I'm not crazy, the attack has begun.
Joined
·
29,860 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Gold isn't a currency. Besides, people now own more 'gold (as financial instruments)' than actually exists as gold, so when they trade gold it's not really a thing they are trading with it's more like .. errr .... hmmmm ... bitcoins ... :unsure:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,304 Posts
Gold isn't a currency. Besides, people now own more 'gold (as financial instruments)' than actually exists as gold, so when they trade gold it's not really a thing they are trading with it's more like .. errr .... hmmmm ... bitcoins ... :unsure:
Who said gold was a currency? Its been historically bought as a hedge against currency fluctuations.

Bitcoin is either ostensibly the same as gold, in which case why hasn't gold gone up 10zillion % especailly given its been used for the purpose for years, or it isn't.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,167 Posts
Gold isn't a currency. Besides, people now own more 'gold (as financial instruments)' than actually exists as gold, so when they trade gold it's not really a thing they are trading with it's more like .. errr .... hmmmm ... bitcoins ... :unsure:
Futures. I will have gold. Pay me for it now.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,067 Posts
It's occurred to me that if one can buy a Tesla with bitcoins, and (looking this up) estimates propose its currently requiring ~15,000kWh to mine a bit coin, and taking the US CO2 footprint of ~400g.CO2/kWh, then to buy a two-bitcoin Tesla (unintended pun there, just happens to be where the prices are) already emits 12 tonnes of CO2 just in the act of buying it!

That is (just the manufacture of the currency to buy it!) comparable with the whole-life emissions from a diminutive European diesel city car.
Work of the Devil, or his greedy cousin.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,083 Posts
It's occurred to me that if one can buy a Tesla with bitcoins, and (looking this up) estimates propose its currently requiring ~15,000kWh to mine a bit coin, and taking the US CO2 footprint of ~400g.CO2/kWh, then to buy a two-bitcoin Tesla (unintended pun there, just happens to be where the prices are) already emits 12 tonnes of CO2 just in the act of buying it!

That is (just the manufacture of the currency to buy it!) comparable with the whole-life emissions from a diminutive European diesel city car.
Ermm which small diesel has lifetime emissions of 12 tons?
Did it crash after 30k miles and get written off?
 

·
I'm not crazy, the attack has begun.
Joined
·
29,860 Posts
Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Ermm which small diesel has lifetime emissions of 12 tons?
Did it crash after 30k miles and get written off?
Well, there is the VW XL1 of course, which has cradle to grave CO2 emissions of around 9 tonnes CO2.

It is European, small and a diesel but cheats with a plug.

Try a Skoda 1.2TDi Fabia. (They can do 120mpg if one tries.)
 
1 - 20 of 27 Posts
Top