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Discussion Starter #1
would have to comply with rules and licences from Visa, MasterCard and the other payments soulution providers, with software updated and checked on each every charge point every time the rules or technology changed.
Not at all... networks using contact-less micro-payment technology can run with no backhaul connection, no network fees, and hardware that costs <£100.

Here's just one example of a traditional chip & pin card reader that cost £59.99 and has no other fees (they take a percentage of the transaction fees);

https://payleven.co.uk/product-comparison/
 

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Not at all... networks using contact-less micro-payment technology can run with no backhaul connection, no network fees, and hardware that costs <£100.

Here's just one example of a traditional chip & pin card reader that cost £59.99 and has no other fees (they take a percentage of the transaction fees);

https://payleven.co.uk/product-comparison/
There are other fees involved, these devices must be connected to a working internet connection at the point of sale. No network, no payment. We use a similar device from Worldpay. Remote, unattended payments are under significantly tighter operating rules, set by the providers. Hence why most vending machines here still lack a pay by card feature.

I agree that most people, myself included don't want to carry scores of RFID cards to access charge points. However one universal, perhaps Oyster style RFID card, is another matter. The technical requirements to implement a universal one card system are significantly cheaper than chip and pin style machines on every charge point. I also do not accept that people would prefer a car park style pay by phone approach over a quick tap to access system. Finally having used the CYC app a few times to access charge points, I can't imagine that being considered more convenient either, plus it's useless where there is no network coverage.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
There are other fees involved, these devices must be connected to a working internet connection at the point of sale. No network, no payment.
Not for contact-less which can process seven transactions without back haul connectivity. That's how the new Oyster Card is working.

We've been talking to two top tier vendors about the contact-less market and they see this is a huge opportunity :)
 

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Not for contact-less which can process seven transactions without back haul connectivity. That's how the new Oyster Card is working.

We've been talking to two top tier vendors about the contact-less market and they see this is a huge opportunity :)
The meaning is important, where contactless is accepted to mean NFC two-way comms are possible between a smart card and smart terminal. Data can be exchanged between card and terminal. Balances , daily allowances can be updated and stored on the NFC device. Much easier to manage fraud of offline transactions. In fact with increasing availability of NFC in smartphones & SIM cards you could negate the need to ever own a card. It's used today for payments and works even when your phone battery is dead.

RFID is dumb by comparison. The equivalent to scanning a printed bar code.

For really low value transactions like charging NFC is a good candidate. You would dispense with the charging network account/app altogether and just use the NFC payments network. Downside, you lose the customer relationship and associated data.
 

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The major factor for charge points is that they are remote, and unmanned, and as such, unlike typical retail scenarios that will benefit from contactless and NFC mobile wallets, they are unlikely to ever feature debit/credit card payment at the charge point.

I'm not against charge points featuring such payment technology, I can see it being useful. But the costs and policies that would need changing to facilitate it are prohibitive, and we have much more chance by supporting a universal one card to access all charge points solution.
 

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@PaulMorris yes NFC could be the solution! Trouble is the card providers and merchant banks won't share fees with MNO's, and despite the GSMA pushing it desperately for the last 3 years at congress, it's turning into a 'what could be' technology.

Perhaps payment solutions are something that we can discuss further when PIB gets it's own forum. Apologies for dragging slightly OT.
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
The major factor for charge points is that they are remote, and unmanned, and as such, unlike typical retail scenarios that will benefit from contactless and NFC mobile wallets, they are unlikely to ever feature debit/credit card payment at the charge point.
ROLEC launched contact-less with barclaycard in 2012 and you can buy it today.

Tap-n-Charge_Page_1.png


But the costs and policies that would need changing to facilitate it are prohibitive, and we have much more chance by supporting a universal one card to access all charge points solution.
Sorry but you're wrong... later this year you will see a contact-less terminal for less than £100 with no network requirement or other fees. Contact-less micro-payments are a perfect solution for EV Charging Stations and will use the financial power of the major POS networks not the bespoke systems deployed by today's charging vendors.

Contact-less gives the location the ability to police access to charging without human intervention while maintaining high levels of reliability. Remember that just the card/phone/fob/whatever and terminal need to accept the transaction and then dish out £1-£20 electricity.... simple!
 

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I truly hope that comes to market, but without costs to compare with current solutions, and moreover an actual product to buy it is just marketing material for the time being. There are lots of similar ideas in many different fields, particularly vending machines, but like the Rolec charge point above, they are still on paper.
 

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Ok so just provide a link or contact to where I can buy one for my business. And yes happy to discuss further on another thread. I won't bore with you the pics of me five years ago boarding a fake plane with an NFC boarding card, or buying a drink from a vending machine with my mobile phone, both things you still can not do today, but looked good at a trade show. Prices and availabilty plese Kevin. And again I'm not saying I don't want to see this technology, but do want to see some prices to compare with current solutions.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Prices and availabilty plese Kevin.
Please contact ROLEC directly (here) because it's their product not mine. I can confirm that it's real having been involved at various levels during it's development.

I can also confirm that various companies are looking at similar deployments... not surprising given how obvious a solution it is.
 

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We should be pushing for a universal system which allows access to all charge stations irrespective of who maintains/owns it..
Thats what we all have today with mainstream POS systems that allow us to buy almost anything with debit/credit "cards" provided by numerous vendors.

The biggest folly in the UK has been the imposition of a proprietary RFID card system for EV charging by OLEV and vested interests. Going forward we should just get out of the way and let the market decide... if a vendor can deliver a low cost charging network using existing POS systems then they should be encouraged to do so.
 

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I like that compromise Paul. It's an important subject matter going forward. For the battery capacities we have now on the mass market, the electricity costs are relatively negligible. However as capacities increase those costs will no longer be insignificant to charge point owners. If an 85kWh model S arrives empty, even today, that's £10 of electricity to fill it up. Those costs won't get absorbed like Wifi.

Regarding Rolec, I've had a chat with them and as expected the product is delayed by the payment provider, in this case Barclaycard. The product is not available for sale, and there is no expected date available. They also said it is somewhat more expensive than the existing token or RFID systems. It's exciting stuff, but I maintain that it will never be universal for all charge points. When (if) they finally get these in the ground, it will be yet another standard and payment for charging option to add to all of the existing RFID cards and memberships.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Regarding Rolec, I've had a chat with them and as expected the product is delayed by the payment provider, in this case Barclaycard. The product is not available for sale, and there is no expected date available.
I used ROLEC as one example of working contact-less hardware that's in the public domain... if you think this through logically and ask yourself what technologies can deliver fee payment schemes across the UK then we really have only one answer today. If you still have doubts then do some research on who's deploying contact-less in other applications and whether they might have an interest in collecting fees while vehicles are parked ;)
 
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