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I'm not crazy, the attack has begun.
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Look up 'rex' against my name and you'll find tons of posts about this.

But where your discussion falls short is what you want to be the power source for such a hybrid.

You can have anything from a battery maintainer of a few kW, just to top a car up and extend the range slightly, or something that is as powerful or more powerful than the electric side of things itself.

I regard the latter as wholly unnecessary and that the optimum would be a 40kWh pack with a 15kW REx.

You can also discuss if the REx is just a pure generator, like the i3, or a complex transaxle system like the Ampera/Volt for a bit of added efficiency.

Next, you need to consider what the power source actually is, which in turn is not independent of the power that you want this REx to have.

You could have;
  • a conventional ICE ... but this has all the problems EVs are trying to be shot of
  • a non-conventional ICE ... may help in some ways but would still suffer NOx and particulates
  • some ICE running on non-conventional fuels ... may reduce particulates or NOX too, possibly
  • an EXTERNAL combustion heat engine, running conventional or non-conventional fuel, offering much reduced emissions
  • a CATALYTIC heat engine that totally converts the fuel (convectional or non conventional)
  • a fuel cell, catalysing hydrogen but possibly methane or ammonia
  • a primary battery, such as aluminium-air or redox flow or some other wonderous outcome, that is mechanically replenished

A thermal isotope battery, such as Pu-238, is also engineeringly feasible, but it is all about politics so you can go figure that one out if you like ...... the whole issue is political, there is little engineering limitation with any of those possibilities.

My main reason for considering REx is not as you suggest, some limitation on the roll out of BEVs, it has already happened, you are very late to this party.

The issue is the range of battery technology. There is a finite range possible, it is in the physics of transition metals that a battery of a certain charge has to have a certain mass. There may be new technologies such as lithium sulphides which might 'change the game' but they are a way off.

So until the magic battery tech appears, what I see is a need for some means to avoid rapid charging during a long trip. Manage away that issue, so there is no need for hordes of BEVs to find a limited number of chargers, and you will have found success. Until then we need either batteries multiple times the size they need to be (viz multiple times the material resources and multiple times the manufacturing emissions) or thousands of rapid chargers (again, lots of emissions and material resources).
 

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Hyundai Ioniq 28
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I would love to hear your opinions on the matter and share your feedback!
I'm not sure that you would love my opinion because it is pretty much negative on so many points that you raise. I think that your basic premise is wrong and also that the reasons that you put forward to support your opinions are either deeply flawed, out of date, or pander to the numerous myths surrounding EVs.

In any case, the basic premise - that a hybrid could bridge the gap - has been tried and tested for ten years, and found wanting. A basic hybrid was a half decent attempt at gaining efficiency. But 99% of all miles are still driven by burning petrol. And a hybrid driver does not experience the true electric drive difference. Just saves a few pennies on petrol.

A plug-in hybrid was a comfort blanket for people with chronic range anxiety. When most EVs had very limited range and the onboard ICE was seen as their personal safety net. However, these days even fairly modest EVs have a range of 200 miles and the public charging is improving daily to replace range in times that are reducing quickly as well. So that carting around a 100 kilos of ancient technology in the form of engine/transmission/fuel tank/exhaust system/catalitic converter etc is now not a sensible solution.

Even the cost of like for like cars is moving towards parity rapidly. Especially when the current growth of Chinese models start to move into the Western markets. Have you looked at the situation in China lately? Watch a few of this guy's videos to scratch the surface of how China is gearing up to flood the world with EVs.


Battery technology is moving fast too. The minerals/metals that you fear are being eliminated. The density per kg is becoming better monthly. Price of batteries approaching $100 per kWh in the pack.

All of this means that your proposal to cart around a large mass of extra metal in a hybrid, which requires regular and expensive servicing, and burns fuel that is becoming unaffordable, is starting to make even less sense than it did five years ago.

Sorry, but you are just plain wrong now. In so many ways. Time to research the situation as it stands today rather than live in the world as it was ten years ago. Because ten years ago your words were being discussed widely and hybrids were pretty much seen as being 'gateway drugs' to full BEV use. Things are much different now but your paper is stuck in time.
 

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I'm not crazy, the attack has begun.
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....
All of this means that your proposal to cart around a large mass of extra metal in a hybrid, which requires regular and expensive servicing.....
He's not mentioned what tech he wants, yet, so you can't say that.

Replacing 200kg of battery pack with a 50kg power source would be the opposite of "carting around a large mass of extra metal". On the contrary, over-sizing a BEV battery to cope with the atrocious display of failing public chargers is the way to add unnecessary mass to your vehicle.

Yeah, sure, if you use a 1950's BL engine as the power source then you are right.

Meanwhile there is a 38kg Pu-238 battery that has been running without any maintenance whatsoever for the last 45 years in a vehicle that has now covered over 14,000,000,000 miles. You'd need a very wide odometer to beat that!! ;)
 

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He's not mentioned what tech he wants, yet, so you can't say that.
It's a pretty fair assumption that he means traditional hybrids otherwise he would have expanded his paper to say that. Also, the arguments presented to support his opinion are years out of date so I seriously doubt if he is even aware of the tech that you mention.

His piece is entirely proposing the use of old style hybrids to 'bridge the gap' before people accept full BEVs. A view that was prevalent until fairly recently. But now becoming an old fashioned view as ranges are much better.

I actually agree with you that a car with a battery range of 120 miles and some form of range extender using tech that is better than a basic Anderson cycle petrol engine would make much sense. But then again, why waste time developing such a solution when battery tech is moving ahead in leaps and bounds and the means to top-up outside range is becoming both more secure and available? I am always a fan of the KISS principle. And adding unnecessary complications to either save mass in transit or slightly improve efficiency is also adding things to go wrong - and expensive 'things' at that.
 

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I'm not crazy, the attack has begun.
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It's a pretty fair assumption that he means traditional hybrids otherwise he would have expanded his paper to say that. Also, the arguments presented to support his opinion are years out of date so I seriously doubt if he is even aware of the tech that you mention.

His piece is entirely proposing the use of old style hybrids to 'bridge the gap' before people accept full BEVs. A view that was prevalent until fairly recently. But now becoming an old fashioned view as ranges are much better.
Agreed. I made that point to them too.

I actually agree with you that a car with a battery range of 120 miles and some form of range extender using tech that is better than a basic Anderson cycle petrol engine would make much sense. But then again, why waste time developing such a solution when battery tech is moving ahead in leaps and bounds .....
Because mass versus capacity is already pretty much maxed out, as it was some time back, so even if you make battery cheaper and cheaper, you can ALWAYS make twice the number of half-sized batteries from whatever total resource you have available, and they will weight a half!

This isn't about the technical readiness of batteries, it is about the technical readiness of rapid chargers. For cars that will never do more than 150 miles until they return back to a charge point under your personal control, you'd be nuts to want a REx or hybrid. For further distances you have either the option to lump around a heavy large battery and play roulette at public facilities, or have a neat elegantly sized battery pack and a lightweight REx unit on board, and be totally self-reliant to have enough energy on board to complete your journey, no external [energy] factors able to defeat you.
 

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2020 Zoe ZE50 135 GT Line
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One question I have, when was this written? Seems 5-6 years ago and to me is outdated.
Battery tech has developed at an incredible pace, so much so hybrids/Rex are really not worth buying.

You mention a batteries ‘lifespan’ is 8 years. Really? Just because the warranty runs out doesn’t mean the goods are going to pack up!

Initial price can be an issue and you mention cost can be double compared to an ICE vehicle, but don’t forget the user can quite easily save more then double on fuel costs.

Charging infrastructure can be an issue at the moment but look at the increase in expenditure with regard to network, many are confident there won’t be an issue in the near future.
 

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I understand there is a big last push by the petroleum industry to grasp onto some control of market share, but the reality is written all over the world; ICE cars will cease to be and EV's are the future IF we hope to have a future. They are an essential part of transitioning away from fossil fuels and sadly Hybrids do not fit that future.

Sure if you want to sink money into your last ICE car, then go ahead and get a Hybrid if you feel you have to (Jeremey Clarkson and a couple of like minded blow-hards), but the smart money will be spent on a new EV and you will most likely be surprised at the economical running cost savings vs any kind of ICE car (Hybrid or otherwise).

We have to change, we have no choice and for the moment EV's are the best option.
 

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EV Convert
2020 iPace HSE.
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Hey!

I have written a detailed blog post about the possibilities of deploying hybrid powertrains till the time EVs become more feasible and logical.

Hybrid Powertrains to bridge the gap between IC engines and electric drivetrains?

I would love to hear your opinions on the matter and share your feedback!

Thanks!
I'll just say what the others don't want to. What a load of outdated crap.

example from this article:

"Even if you are lucky enough to have the money needed for an EV, the infrastructure around EVs is not in your hands. Hence, the fear of getting stranded on the freeways with no juice left in your vehicle can’t be overcome easily. And this is the reality of the entire world, excluding a handful of big cities in the world. "

Bollocks.
 

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I'm not crazy, the attack has begun.
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"Even if you are lucky enough to have the money needed for an EV, the infrastructure around EVs is not in your hands. Hence, the fear of getting stranded on the freeways with no juice left in your vehicle can’t be overcome easily. And this is the reality of the entire world, excluding a handful of big cities in the world. "

Bollocks.
Why do you call it bollocks? I think the OP is saying if you have a 150 mile range car on a 200 mile journey and you find nowhere to charge ... I agree it is an outdated exaggeration to say that it is a reality outside cities, but that does not mean it is impossible to run out of charge with no free chargers anywhere near on a relatively 'short' long trip. The total numbers of chargers available versus out of action or that have long queues waiting to use them seems to be ever on the increase.

There is no guarantee that you'll find a charger on your route. What guarantees do network provides offer for availability? Show that they offer minimum availability guarantees and you have a point.

Without minimum availability guarantees, why are you so sure it is 'bollocks'?
 

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I’m sorry to add to the negative voices, but your article is very outdated. The Prius was launched 25 years ago! And the Leaf 12 years ago!

Sure “deploying hybrid powertrains till the time EVs become more feasible” was the case 25 years ago. And the original Leaf lacked the active battery temperature management and sophisticated battery management systems that modern BEVs enjoy.

The challenges that slowed the rollout of pureplay BEVs are now solved. The battery will still be working in 20 years when the rest of the car is defunct.
 

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Some EVs or other
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Why do you call it bollocks? I think the OP is saying if you have a 150 mile range car on a 200 mile journey and you find nowhere to charge ... I agree it is an outdated exaggeration to say that it is a reality outside cities, but that does not mean it is impossible to run out of charge with no free chargers anywhere near on a relatively 'short' long trip. The total numbers of chargers available versus out of action or that have long queues waiting to use them seems to be ever on the increase.

There is no guarantee that you'll find a charger on your route. What guarantees do network provides offer for availability? Show that they offer minimum availability guarantees and you have a point.

Without minimum availability guarantees, why are you so sure it is 'bollocks'?
This is not ‘having a go’ at you Donald, but your comment reminded me to ask myself why examples of EV charging being so fraught are always these ’edge cases’?

What about that same 150 mile EV on a 100 mile trip? Non event I expect? It’s got to be the case that the number of 100 mile trips far far outweigh those that are 200 miles?

I don’t have a 150 mile EV nowadays, but my e-Golf was ‘only’ 125 miles, and I was doing the same trips back in 2019 as I am now with an even less dense charging network, I just needed a charge stop. The main disadvantage to me was that it took up my time, but it was my decision and I went into it with my eyes open.

This household covers 40k electric miles a year between us, yes most of that is from home charging, but the realities of the rapid charging network aren’t anywhere near as bad as many make out, and the really good thing is it’s improving all the time.

The problem with any discussion around this is it’s dominated by people who’ve had a bad charging experience and post about it, or it’s dominated by people who aren’t even charging an EV on the road but who ‘remember how bad it was’, who then post about it. Endlessly. Folks who are finding it ok are shouted down as a statistical anomaly, but people who are finding things in EV land fine and dandy just don’t post about it as much.

I’m going to venture that whilst most EV drivers who need to public charge would always wish there were more chargers in more places, the vast majority of them access chargers successfully most of the time, otherwise we wouldn’t all still be doing it and the numbers of them hitting the roads wouldn’t be increasing.

As long as the number and location of rapid chargers continues to rise in line with uptake of EVs, then it looks ok. The supply chain delays for EVs are doing us a favour in that regard I suppose, but it’s also delaying the rollout of more chargers too.

Just chewing the fat, as they say, but the reality is that EVs do work perfectly well for a lot of people right now, and the fact that they aren’t quite as convenient as an ICE for beyond range trips won’t come into it. My own father last drove more than 60 miles in a day two decades ago, he just doesn’t drive that far and never will. He’s not untypical.
 

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I'm not crazy, the attack has begun.
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Batteries have a regular lifespan of about 8 years.
……
NB: I don't necessarily have this POV, but it is not an irrational argument;-

Well, that'll be the manufacturers who put an 8 year warranty on them. After that, you have no legitimate expectation nor recourse that they won't go wrong.

At the moment they are accidentally over-engineering them because they don't know how to time the battery life to the warranty period, but rest assured once they can do that, they will, if they can reduce the cost to them by reducing the engineering/material input.
 

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I'm not crazy, the attack has begun.
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This is not ‘having a go’ at you Donald, but your comment reminded me to ask myself why examples of EV charging being so fraught are always these ’edge cases’?

What about that same 150 mile EV on a 100 mile trip? Non event I expect? It’s got to be the case that the number of 100 mile trips far far outweigh those that are 200 miles?
I'd just like to note, I did explicitly say earlier, "For cars that will never do more than 150 miles until they return back to a charge point under your personal control, you'd be nuts to want a REx or hybrid."


The problem with any discussion around this is it’s dominated by people who’ve had a bad charging experience
The problem with 'that' comment is that everyone with moderate rapid-use experience has had a bad charging experience, and it is only going to get a lot worse as the rate of BEV ownership is higher than the rate of charger availability.


or it’s dominated by people who aren’t even charging an EV on the road but who ‘remember how bad it was’, who then post about it. Endlessly.
But I can literally see it is worse than it was, and it was bad before. At least I mostly had to contend with chargers not working, rarely did I meet others, now I see queues of BEVs waiting for [broken] chargers if I pull into service areas.

As many here have discussed already, there is a cadre of folk who would desperately like to return to BEV but have concluded it is not possible at the moment. Those same folk, I am quite sure, are also feeling the pinch on the fuel prices of the dinosaur sick that they have to buy. So a REx of some description that offers a choice of energy source can hardly be discounted in a single swipe of generalisation.

Like I have said recently, owners will tend to defend their choice of vehicles if they think they are being out-bettered by something else, it is a natural instinct to put up a defence if you feel you are under siege from a side you think has an advantage over you. Owners that don't feel that way just keep schtum about their advantage. I don't have anything bad to say about BEVs and even less to say badly about REx/PHEVs. Meanwhile, PHEVers like to bash ICE, and BEV like to bash everyone else. Just wondering why that psychology exists?
 

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Some EVs or other
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But I can literally see it is worse than it was, and it was bad before. At least I mostly had to contend with chargers not working, rarely did I meet others, now I see queues of BEVs waiting for [broken] chargers if I pull into service areas.

As many here have discussed already, there is a cadre of folk who would desperately like to return to BEV but have concluded it is not possible at the moment. Those same folk, I am quite sure, are also feeling the pinch on the fuel prices of the dinosaur sick that they have to buy. So a REx of some description that offers a choice of energy source can hardly be discounted in a single swipe of generalisation.

Like I have said recently, owners will tend to defend their choice of vehicles if they think they are being out-bettered by something else, it is a natural instinct to put up a defence if you feel you are being bettered. Owners that don't feel that way just keep schtum about their advantage. I don't have anything bad to say about BEVs and even less to say badly about REx/PHEVs. Meanwhile, PHEVers like to bash ICE, and BEV like to bash everyone else. Just wondering why that psychology exists?
How can it be ‘worse’ given the huge rise in rapid charge sites since you were last driving a BEV? You say you see queues, as do I sometimes, but such is the improving density of charging that I can go elsewhere on the trip. It’s far more likely that I see no queues, and often no cars at all using a bank of chargers.

The cadre of folk as you describe them who post about wanting to return are the self selecting sample I’m talking about, but their views and experiences are no more important than those who don’t post about it. It would get pretty boring if I were posting constantly on here about how many successful charges I have done.

I think the ‘bashing’ hierarchy bit is in your head, if you’re a ‘basher’ then you’re more likely to bash and see bashing I think… Something to do with Nietzsche and philosophising with a hammer.
 

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I'm not crazy, the attack has begun.
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How can it be ‘worse’ given the huge rise in rapid charge sites since you were last driving a BEV?
Because the number of users is even 'huge-er', and their charge times once on said charger is even "longer-er".

You say you see queues, as do I sometimes, but such is the improving density of charging that I can go elsewhere on the trip. It’s far more likely that I see no queues, and often no cars at all using a bank of chargers.
But this will get worse and worse. The main thrust of usage will be from company vehicles. At the moment they still largely drive diesels for their long distance days out. When (if?) the sales bans kick in, these companies buy new cars and their long distance trips will be by BEV. Then you will also have all the vans, which are not even represented yet.

We have discussed this before. If Gov can increase the number of chargers by 10 times what there is today, as has been suggested, they have a chance to keep up. 'If' is a very loose term here I'm not wanting to rely on.

I just don't want to rely on others not using chargers when I want to use them. For that I am prepared to pay .... errr ... less per mile than they pay from the rapid chargers ... ( ? :unsure: ).

OK, yes, for me personally, with my 4.5p/kWh I could run a BEV very cheaply indeed. But I am doing low miles these days so it doesn't affect me too much.

If I were to be doing more miles then either; reliable chargers = BEV, unreliable chargers = PHEV. I see unreliable chargers right now.

We had Paul reporting the other day that Plymouth has only 4 of 9 chargers working, this is for a town with a 200k or so population and very little land beyond it in which to find more chargers! So if you were to head down to that part of the world, you're going to have some significant difficulties there I think?

Less than 40% availability in a location that already has less than one rapid per 20,000 people is NOT indicative of a reliable network. It just isn't, but feel free to kid yourself otherwise.
 

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Some EVs or other
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But this will get worse and worse. The main thrust of usage will be from company vehicles. At the moment they still largely drive diesels for their long distance days out. When (if?) the sales bans kick in, these companies buy new cars and their long distance trips will be by BEV. Then you will also have all the vans, which are not even represented yet.
So you’re basing your views now on what you think it will be like some years down the line? Ok.

We have discussed this before. If Gov can increase the number of chargers by 10 times what there is today, as has been suggested, they have a chance to keep up. 'If' is a very loose term here I'm not wanting to rely on.
Private companies are doing their bit as well, and whilst you can (and do!) argue about the numbers of chargers that are going to be required, they are getting installed and numbers are going up.

We had Paul reporting the other day that Plymouth has only 4 of 9 chargers working, this is for a town with a 200k or so population and very little land beyond it in which to find more chargers! So if you were to head down to that part of the world, you're going to have some significant difficulties there I think?
Yes, Plymouth isn’t very well sorted for working rapids, and it’s not alone. It’s an issue for him because he doesn’t yet have his home charger working, once it is he won’t care.

There’s a Supercharger hub being built in Plymouth, and a Gridserve one starting build as well. You’re happy to condemn the current networks based on what it’ll be like in the future, so you should be pleased that Plymouth will be better served in the near future.

Less than 40% availability in a location that already has less than one rapid per 20,000 people is NOT indicative of a reliable network. It just isn't, but feel free to kid yourself otherwise.
Again, this is the ‘edge’ stuff I’m talking about, there are of course parts of the country that are even worse off, but it’s changing and is no reason to dismiss (or handwave) the entirety of the UKs charging provision which is in many places excellent and getting better every month.
 
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