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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Lots of different approaches to charging are being installed at the moment but for a bit of fun it would be interesting to hear what everyone’s ‘perfect’ charging site would look like!

For me a large car park type hub built around a Starbucks/Costa. Ideally multi-modal (at a park and ride or similar) providing:

5x350kWh single headed CCS (labelled ‘premium charging’)
20x150kWh dual headed CCS
5x100kWh dual headed Chademo (separate CCS/Chademo ranks to avoid confusion)
40+xType2 tethered (3-phase, for PHEV, Zoe and general parking)
5xType2 untethered (type 1s etc)

I’d also have per minute pricing rather than per kWh to encourage people to charge on the rapids at higher speeds only:

‘Premium’ - £2,50/min
Normal - £1/min
Type 2 - free

*no Tesla-only chargers because they can learn to share with the rest of us 🤣
 

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MG5
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I like the idea of the different banks of chargers but not the pricing.
If my car can only take 80kw max then being on a 150kw will cost me twice as much then a car that can take the full 150.
I would prefer chargers you can set up to deliver a certain amount of juice say 40 kw. Then disconnect the lead and have spaces around the charger that multiple cars can park at.
 

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Lots of different approaches to charging are being installed at the moment but for a bit of fun it would be interesting to hear what everyone’s ‘perfect’ charging site would look like!

For me a large car park type hub built around a Starbucks/Costa. Ideally multi-modal (at a park and ride or similar) providing:

5x350kWh single headed CCS (labelled ‘premium charging’)
20x150kWh dual headed CCS
5x100kWh dual headed Chademo (separate CCS/Chademo ranks to avoid confusion)
40+xType2 tethered (3-phase, for PHEV, Zoe and general parking)
5xType2 untethered (type 1s etc)

I’d also have per minute pricing rather than per kWh to encourage people to charge on the rapids at higher speeds only:

‘Premium’ - £2,50/min
Normal - £1/min
Type 2 - free

*no Tesla-only chargers because they can learn to share with the rest of us 🤣
I'll add provision for vehicles that are towing. For a lot of existing vehicles, you might want to add some 50kW units at say 30p/minute. I would have all the rapids automatically cut off at less than (say) 1/4 of their peak charging rate as well.

By the way you mean kW, not kWh 😊
 

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Hyundai Ioniq 28
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Don't reopen that lost argument of pricing by time please. The only logical and universally acceptable pricing system is to charge by the amount of product delivered. Of course, overstay fees charged per minute beyond an agreed maximum stay make much sense and would be accepted and welcomed by most users.
 

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*no Tesla-only chargers because they can learn to share with the rest of us 🤣
You’re already being elitist by specifying ‘premium chargers’.

Are those the ones for VIP visitors to avoid the peasants?
 

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What feckwit would accept charging by the minute, especially at the nonsensical £1/min… the French excepted as they already use charging by the minute anyway?

Have as many Rapids and ultra rapids as you like, the more the better but you limit the time you can be hooked up with overstay penalties. Ultra rapids you charge overstay penalties after, say 30 minutes for a 350kW, 45 min for a 150kW and 60 min for anything lower powered. More than enough time for cars capable of using those chargers to get enough charge to move on. It would also encourage those with slower charge rates to use the better suited charger.

The charge for electrons should be sensible at around 35p-45p/kWh for all the chargers.

It would prevent the owners of expensive cars with very big batteries and very fast charging capabilities from trying to suck enough electrons out of a 100kW charger in the allowed 60min and at the same time prevent some of the owners of cars with puny batteries and and even punier charging rates from hooking up to the super rapid chargers where they‘d only have 30 minutes to suck electrons before they are hit with overstay charges.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
You’re already being elitist by specifying ‘premium chargers’.

Are those the ones for VIP visitors to avoid the peasants?
I was thinking more to stop people like me without a 350kW capable car tying up the highest rapids which cost the most to install!

Also any issue with Tesla chargers is that it doesn’t add to the broader pool of charging so I’d say it’s less elitist to use the grid capacity for open chargers than closed ones.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
What feckwit would accept charging by the minute, especially at the nonsensical £1/min… the French excepted as they already use charging by the minute anyway?
I guess this feckwit? When I plan my charges at the moment I do so around stops (lunch, coffee etc) and then charge for however long that takes - this means plugging in to a charger at 70% (say) to 90% of which most time is far slower than capability.

No overstay fees hit me, and I pay for the energy I get no matter how long it takes. I know if I paid by minute it would change my behaviour but for now the system encourages me to plug in and take as long as I like within any parking restrictions etc

Etiquette may say otherwise but that’s largely a preserve of EV enthusiasts - any behaviour not limited by the charging setup or pricing will take a long time to become ingrained.
 

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I was thinking more to stop people like me without a 350kW capable car tying up the highest rapids which cost the most to install!

Also any issue with Tesla chargers is that it doesn’t add to the broader pool of charging so I’d say it’s less elitist to use the grid capacity for open chargers than closed ones.
You’re forgetting about rich Zoe owners that would be happy to sit on a premium charger.
 

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One thing Tesla seem to have got right is the actual stalls are simple and all the complicated electronics are in a building that looks like a small substation.

I think the future at motorway services will be many slimmed down, dumb charging posts, that are basically just CCS connectors wired directly to the substation with a contactless payment terminal. You might need 100s of them at a busy site like Wetherby services when everyone is driving EVs. Charging will just be per kWh with the usual 2h parking restriction you have at most services.

All stalls would be capable of 350kW but not at the same time. The site power would be shared across all chargers which is fine because most cars only take 350kW for a short portion of their session. I expect some kind of battery storage will be used to manage demand on the grid.
 

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I think the reason there are lots of approaches to charging, is that there need to be. Different dwell times, for one thing, and trying to fit it in to the driver's natural routine.

When I do Newcastle-London, my only interest is as rapid as possible, as close to the motorway as possible, with decent food, beverage & toilets.

When I go to the Lake District for the day, I'm probably going to stop in a town like Keswick for an hour or so anyway, so a slower charger is fine (for me). I'd happily take 25kW DC, with no facilities, if it meant they could install more of them. But I think these car parks could do with a variety of speeds, for all-day parkers and 10 minute top-ups.

Or I would take a Gridserve-style forecourt on the journey back. Decent size minimarket, Costa etc. But as I understand it, Gridserve closes the facilities in the evening, which isn't great.

So that's three different 'perfect' charging solutions just for me!
 

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I guess this feckwit? When I plan my charges at the moment I do so around stops (lunch, coffee etc) and then charge for however long that takes - this means plugging in to a charger at 70% (say) to 90% of which most time is far slower than capability.

No overstay fees hit me, and I pay for the energy I get no matter how long it takes. I know if I paid by minute it would change my behaviour but for now the system encourages me to plug in and take as long as I like within any parking restrictions etc

Etiquette may say otherwise but that’s largely a preserve of EV enthusiasts - any behaviour not limited by the charging setup or pricing will take a long time to become ingrained.
So, you'd go for a 30-40 minute "lunch" or break and be prepared to pay £30-£40 for 20% fill of your 35kWh-70kWh battery. That would be anything from 7kW @ £30 = £4.29/kWh to 7kW @ £40 = £5.71/kWh to 14kWh @ £30 = £2.14/kWh to 14kW @ £40 = £2.86/kWh... for example?

I seriously would question anyones sanity if they are prepared to pay anything like £2.14/kWh to £5.71/kWh to add 20% to their already 70% charged battery whilst they enjoy their third rate fast food break.

Just KISS... Overstay penalties dependent on charger capacity. If your big battery driver wants to spend up to 60 minutes charging whilst they enjoy their fast food fill, thats fine but they'll only get 100kW max.

Charging per minute is the most ridiculous and most likely open method for ripping people off that there is. They simply have to de-rate their chargers and... kerching!
 

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Large hubs at every MSA 350 kW capable and hopefully cars with at least 150 kW charging capability. Legacy provision for current puny charging power and puny sized batteries cars.

That would do fine for me. I have no need or desire for destination or any slow type charger.
 
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So, you'd go for a 30-40 minute "lunch" or break and be prepared to pay £30-£40 for 20% fill of your 35kWh-70kWh battery. That would be anything from 7kW @ £30 = £4.29/kWh to 7kW @ £40 = £5.71/kWh to 14kWh @ £30 = £2.14/kWh to 14kW @ £40 = £2.86/kWh... for example?
No, I think he was saying if the charging was done by time, he'd be forced to change his habits and plug in when at a lower state of charge, to get better value for money and overall leave chargers available for other users more of the time.
It's a fair point, because clearly there are some selfish people about who will hog chargers unless they are somehow coerced not to do so. I don't think a flat rate per minute is the best solution, though - either a time limit and penalty for overstaying or automatic disconnection if the charging rate drops below some limit like 15kW or the battery is reporting more than 90% state of charge.
 

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Can we please not groundhog the same old time-based pricing nonsense for buying electrons. Anyone who still thinks that it's a great idea has simply not spent enough time thinking the proposal through. The only reason for time to come into the question of charging away from home concerns the maximum time allowed at any given type of charger. With clear signage. And how that can be policed and penalties imposed.
 

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Slightly off topic, is it too much to ask for some sort of canopy? Fed up of getting wet at most of them, the exception being the rapids at Bristol and Bath science Park, but no coffee or toilet facilities. Pub 5 minutes walk so I'd still get wet, sigh....
 

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No, I think he was saying if the charging was done by time, he'd be forced to change his habits and plug in when at a lower state of charge, to get better value for money and overall leave chargers available for other users more of the time.
It's a fair point, because clearly there are some selfish people about who will hog chargers unless they are somehow coerced not to do so. I don't think a flat rate per minute is the best solution, though - either a time limit and penalty for overstaying or automatic disconnection if the charging rate drops below some limit like 15kW or the battery is reporting more than 90% state of charge.
The automatic disconnect is not going to discourage anyone because if they are the selfish type, they'll just leave their car in situ and carry on with whatever they do anyway. The requirement is to get people to move their cars once the charge has been delivered. A charger not charging is costing money. Too many people are of the mindset that an EV charging spot is also an EV parking spot. Just as petrol pumps are not parking spots, neither should EV rapid charging spots be considered so.

Whilst I abhor some of the ParkingEye types of parking management companies, there should be some enforcement of people who park in EV charging spots without connecting, either EV or ICE. Connect and charge. Once charged, disconnect and move on. It's a simple concept and by having an overstay penalty, you can somewhat manage it. For most people, either 30 minutes or an hour is more than enough to get sufficient charge in order to move on and have a break. If worse comes to worst and you haven't finished your break, you will either have to traipse back to your car and move it or else bear the cost of the overstay penalty. There's a choice. To be honest, 9 times out of 10 it probably isn't a great effort to go and move the car and then go back to your break.
 

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The automatic disconnect is not going to discourage anyone because if they are the selfish type, they'll just leave their car in situ and carry on with whatever they do anyway. The requirement is to get people to move their cars once the charge has been delivered. A charger not charging is costing money. Too many people are of the mindset that an EV charging spot is also an EV parking spot. Just as petrol pumps are not parking spots, neither should EV rapid charging spots be considered so.

Whilst I abhor some of the ParkingEye types of parking management companies, there should be some enforcement of people who park in EV charging spots without connecting, either EV or ICE. Connect and charge. Once charged, disconnect and move on. It's a simple concept and by having an overstay penalty, you can somewhat manage it. For most people, either 30 minutes or an hour is more than enough to get sufficient charge in order to move on and have a break. If worse comes to worst and you haven't finished your break, you will either have to traipse back to your car and move it or else bear the cost of the overstay penalty. There's a choice. To be honest, 9 times out of 10 it probably isn't a great effort to go and move the car and then go back to your break.
Automat disconnection below 1/4 peak charging rate coupled with an overstay penalty, however, would definitely do it.
 
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Automat disconnection below 1/4 peak charging rate coupled with an overstay penalty, however, would definitely do it.
Possibly. But why would you need both? Figuring out what the peak charging rate of the connected vehicle is would be a nightmare and require databases of different vehicles and their charger capabilities and for the charger to know exactly the type of vehicle it is connected to. KISS. A rapid charger should be considered in exactly the same way as a petrol pump. OK, an EV needs longer to charge but it should only be used for that. 30 to 60 minutes depending on the capabilities of the charger will encourage some form of discipline for those who care and will penalise/educate those who don't.
 

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The automatic disconnect is not going to discourage anyone because if they are the selfish type, they'll just leave their car in situ and carry on with whatever they do anyway.
True, but it would help where there are two parking bays sharing one charger - if one user is waiting they can help themselves as soon as the charger disconnects itself. (does CCS allow the charger to unlock the vehicle connector? Maybe that won't work)
 
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