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Discussion Starter #1
At 0740:
"Theresa May has asked officials to develop plans to scrap diesel cars as part of proposals to improve air quality. The government is due to announce plans to comply with European Union legislation to improve air quality and meet nitrogen dioxide limits by April 24 following a ruling by the High Court late last year. More than 11 million diesel cars are running around on British roads at the moment. Neil Parish is chairman of the environment, food and rural affairs select committee and Professor Karel Williams is from Manchester Business School."

Not sure whether there is a link available yet.

Not the best segment I've ever heard, although I didn't catch it all, but good that it's being discussed. Two things that stuck out for me:
  1. EU6 diesels are dirtier than EU3. Is this true?
  2. Electric buses are twice the price of diesel buses. Not sure why the discussion wasn't about total cost of ownership, but I expect that doesn't come out in favour of the electric version either. Apart from waiting for battery prices to reduce, what should be done?
 

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1. Not supposed to be
2. They're mostly talking about private cars rather than trucks, vans and busses where high torque means diesel is a benefit. In a private car there's no need for the engine to have high torque as the car isn't very heavy. By replacing private cars/company cars with petrol/phev/BEV cars that will have a nice benefit with not too much pain.
 

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That stat about buses can't be right for TCO. They are already at about 75% EV in the new bus market in China, and headed for near 100% by 2020.

Maybe there is still some racist stigma about Chinese buses or something... Chinese cars are starting to take off.
 

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I wonder how much extra congestion is caused by fuel efficient cars as the marginal costs of journeys becomes less and less? If everyone had a 30mpg car instead of a 50 or 60mpg I'd bet they'd not be doing anything like the miles.
 

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Is it just a case of doing the minimum necessary to avoid another court appearance?

And where's the announcement about banning the sales of new diesel cars from year 20XX onwards?
 

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1) No – Euro 4 and 5 performed worse in real world driving than Euro 3 but Euro 6 is reckoned to be pretty good provided the car is used appropriately (i.e. the DPF has time to heat up and function as designed).

I don't understand all the emotion about scrappage. There around 10 cities in the UK where NOx and diesel origin particulate matter are a particular problem. Driving an old smoker in rural settings or in built up areas with good street ventilation won't cause as much harm as the NOx levels dissipate down to background (low) levels within a few metres of the tailpipe.
 

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I find it incredible that new diesel cars are still being sold at all. The government readily accepts that it causes lots of deaths and there are plenty of alternatives on sale. Its just stupid to keep on selling them.
I'm awaiting delivery of a brand new Peugeot 3008 2 litre Diesel. It's main use will be for long journeys to visit friends, family and some business (300+ miles round trips) and our caravan holidaying throughout the year (towing the caravan). I wish there was an alternative but sadly there isn't.
 

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In a private car there's no need for the engine to have high torque as the car isn't very heavy.
I disagree. EV owners rave about how nice EV's are to drive due to their enormous torque figures. While many people might think they dont want or need a powerful car with a big engine, give them a car with the same size engine and 50% more torque and they'll almost certainly find it a big improvement.

Exactly the same thing happens with diesel vs petrol. If you take a generic petrol car and compare the diesel engine, with the petrol model with similar power, you'll find the diesel engine has significantly more torque in the lower part of the rev range. In the same way as an EV, this translates to a car that feels much more powerful that it really is, when driven in a lazy fashion typical of most normal drivers. Yes, if you floor both cars and scream them round to the red line, the petrol is usually faster, but in the usual 1000-3000rpm range that Mrs Mavis drives along in, the diesel wins easily.

Now, granted, the newer cars with turbocharged petrols are helping close the gap, but the gap is still there, simply because you usually then end up with a much smaller petrol engine.

Its a fundamental point that people seem to miss when shooting down diesel. If you step back from the environmental point for a moment, you realise that not only are they significantly cheaper to fuel than an equivalent petrol model, they are usually much nicer to drive as well. And for a lot of people, those two points will easily outweigh some carbons or NOX coming out the tailpipe. They are tangible real world metrics that they feel thru their butt and wallet, rather than some mystery gas that they cant see, wafting out the back.


As for real-world alternatives to diesel cars, that allows you to get to a point where you can simply ban them, well they dont exist. Yes, folk on here might think they do, but that usually only works for a subset of folk. If you do a lot of miles, petrol and hybrids dont work as they return about 50% less MPG, electrics dont work as they dont have enough range/cant tow/take too long to charge, or the model you need simply doesnt exist.
 

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Cigarettes are still sold. Alcohol is still sold. Both kill.
not quite the right analogy , still legal to harm yourself with Cigarettes & Alcohol, but it's illegal to share it with the populace .

At present you can commute to work in a city with your barely warmed up diesel Disco and dump 6.25 tonnes CO2 + 15.75 kilograms of NOx PM's ( 10K annual ) from your tailpipe .
 

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I find it incredible that new diesel cars are still being sold at all. The government readily accepts that it causes lots of deaths and there are plenty of alternatives on sale. Its just stupid to keep on selling them.
They do still sell cigarettes.

Maybe diesel cars should be sold in the same way: unbranded, with generic bodywork in the ugliest form possible, plastered with pictures of peoples' lungs after longtime NOX and particulate exposure...
 

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And for a lot of people, those two points will easily outweigh some carbons or NOX coming out the tailpipe.
In other words, people are selfish and will prioritize their own convenience over other people's health.

The only way to stop them is to make diesel cars inconvenient, i.e. expensive. It just ban them and people can live with petrol or go hybrid/EV.

Sorry, but your desire for a powerful and cheap to run car does not take precedence over other people's health.
 

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In other words, people are selfish and will prioritize their own convenience over other people's health.

The only way to stop them is to make diesel cars inconvenient, i.e. expensive. It just ban them and people can live with petrol or go hybrid/EV.

Sorry, but your desire for a powerful and cheap to run car does not take precedence over other people's health.
Diesel is relatively cheap to use because the cost of the 'externalities' – healthcare costs arising from lung and heart disease – are not loaded back onto the cost via taxation. The same is true for sugar and the cost to the NHS of obesity and type 2 diabetes.
 

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People will ALWAYS prioritise themselves over others, thats standard humans for you, and shouldnt really be a surprise.

The simple fact is that diesel is unavoidable, probably for at least 10-15years, maybe longer, for many use cases. Banning it outright wont happen.

As someone pointed out above, fags and booze both cause health damage, and various other social fallout, but they're not banned. They just get charged a bit extra tax. And those things arent even productive machines that are used for a purpose. They're social activities that benefit no-one.

So yes, we will likely see diesel become more expensive. But i also imagine that expense will be targetted, at least initially, at the areas where its causing the biggest issues. IE city centres.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
1) No – Euro 4 and 5 performed worse in real world driving than Euro 3 but Euro 6 is reckoned to be pretty good provided the car is used appropriately (i.e. the DPF has time to heat up and function as designed).

I don't understand all the emotion about scrappage. There around 10 cities in the UK where NOx and diesel origin particulate matter are a particular problem. Driving an old smoker in rural settings or in built up areas with good street ventilation won't cause as much harm as the NOx levels dissipate down to background (low) levels within a few metres of the tailpipe.
I hear that a key driver of lowered speed limits on smart motorways past Luton and Birmingham is to reduce pollution. I wonder what proportion of vehicles would need to move across to battery power to have the same effect as the reduction in speed limit from 70 to 50mph? I'm guessing it would be in the region of 20%, but it would need to be an even proportion of cars, trucks and coaches. Not an easy volume to achieve when most EVs are still most suited to short urban journeys.
 

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I disagree. EV owners rave about how nice EV's are to drive due to their enormous torque figures. While many people might think they dont want or need a powerful car with a big engine, give them a car with the same size engine and 50% more torque and they'll almost certainly find it a big improvement.
I wasn't saying that torque is a bad thing, but in a small or medium car in a city there's no *need* for diesel levels of torque. It's not like these cars are pulling tonnes of stuff around on the school run or the trip to the shops.
A small, efficient, 3 cylinder petrol engine would probably suit most of these cars better.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Diesel is relatively cheap to use because the cost of the 'externalities' – healthcare costs arising from lung and heart disease – are not loaded back onto the cost via taxation. The same is true for sugar and the cost to the NHS of obesity and type 2 diabetes.
I agree there are externalities, but I'm not sure this is why diesel is relatively cheap compared to battery power, which I'm sure has some externalities as well. Maybe it's more to do with us being very early in our understanding of how to make batteries cheap and efficient?

I haven't looked it up, but I'd guess that diesel is taxed much more heavily than batteries and electricity as well. I'm not a diesel fan - I'd much rather every car, truck and bus on the road was an EV, but I'm looking at my options to replace my long-distance, diesel MPV, and they're pretty rubbish.
 

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I wasn't saying that torque is a bad thing, but in a small or medium car in a city there's no *need* for diesel levels of torque. It's not like these cars are pulling tonnes of stuff around on the school run or the trip to the shops.
Have you weighed a Disco or similar Chelsea tractor - common school run cars / shopping cars(n):eek:
 
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