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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I am one of the lucky ones having so far had 20 months of Kona use with no auxiliary battery problems. However with so many issues reported on this forum of flat and failing batteries I have acquired a smart charger (Ring RSC808) to give the battery a little TLC to hopefully avoid a problem in the future
If I connect the charger without disconnecting the battery, will the 4 hour cycle of charge to the battery from the car interfere with the smart chargers sequence/operation?
Will be grateful for advice.
 

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2020 Ioniq 38 2016 Leaf 30 gone
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I was worried about this when I bought a Ctek charger when my Leaf battery was failing showing odd errors on the dashboard. I had a spare (failing) 12 volt car battery so disconnected and removed the Leaf battery and attached the spare battery to the car. Just as well really as recovery mode using the Ctek took 18 hours on the Leaf battery. I ran recovery a second time on the Leaf battery, it was a lot quicker this time. After returning the battery to the Leaf it lasted a week or so then the errors started appearing again, I replaced it with a Yuasa battery no more errors.
 

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I am one of the lucky ones having so far had 20 months of Kona use with no auxiliary battery problems. However with so many issues reported on this forum of flat and failing batteries I have acquired a smart charger (Ring RSC808) to give the battery a little TLC to hopefully avoid a problem in the future
If I connect the charger without disconnecting the battery, will the 4 hour cycle of charge to the battery from the car interfere with the smart chargers sequence/operation?
Will be grateful for advice.
It's a wise move, IMHO, to think like this and do it.

It's a function of the charger. Some can and some can't. Read the spec. If it offers a low current trickle charge and says it can work 'in a circuit' then it should be fine. Don't take that as advice, you will have to do your own checks to your satisfaction, but for sure it can cause complications.

If you check with Hyundai and Ring and both say 'fine', it'd be helpful to pin up here such confirmations. If they do not confirm then, really, you have to follow the procedures in the handbook for disconnecting the battery if you want zero risk.

If the handbook says never disconnect the battery, then it's not an option (at 'zero' risk).

I'm sure this will all be fine, but it's about warranty expectations and such.

If you are running a desulphation cycle (which I recommend to BEVs generally on a 1 to 2 month timescale) then you have to disconnect.

It's a pain and one should not need to do it, but no point saying 'I shouldn't have to do this' to oneself 2000 times during the wait you have for the recovery truck to arrive. Up to people to decide on their own risks in life.

Always disconnect the -ve line first if you have to use a spanner (viz. if the +ve is not supplied with a finger operated quick release clamp, which I have not seen on passenger cars for many years, some vans still have this sort of thing). This is to avoid accidentally touching the bodywork with the spanner if one starts with the +ve nut.
 

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Kia e-Niro MY20 64 kWh - Gravity Blue
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Just leave the car in utility mode for let's say 4 hours. No need for a smart charger. I personally think all that talk about desulphating and what not is snake oil business.
 

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LEAF N-TEC 62KW
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Just leave the car in utility mode for let's say 4 hours. No need for a smart charger. I personally think all that talk about desulphating and what not is snake oil business.
I agree. Sulphation is a phenomenon associated with batteries left if a well discharged state regularly. I can see no reason why an EV's 12v battery would suffer unless the DC-DC converter is not adequately keeping it charged up.
 

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Just leave the car in utility mode for let's say 4 hours. No need for a smart charger. I personally think all that talk about desulphating and what not is snake oil business.
Ah! You've caught me out! It's all BS, just like people claiming to have unexpected flat and damaged batteries in BEVs. We're just making it all up.

heh. And we thought we could just hoodwink you into thinking there's a real problem here.

(As I approach a point where I am now seriously in a position to contemplate early retirement, I do wonder WTFingPoint was in me spending 25 years becoming a Chartered Engineer, now we're rolling into the "post-modern" world where opinion outweighs scientific and engineering fact. Why did I bother, when people that know nothing about this field think they have more to say about it than me? Over to you guys, I'm out of here. Done with 12V. If anyone ever thinks someone might benefit from being pointed to my posts, feel free. I'm not playing here any more.)
 

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PM me if you think I can offer more, but sounds like you have already got your head in the right place to me.

I understand it is a toss up between 'expecting' no trouble versus 'ensuring' there isn't any! Each to their own, and good luck all.
 

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Puma GTE > Suzuki Jimny > BMW Z4 > Cupra Leon ST
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@donald quite dramatic aren't you? 🤣

But back to the discussion, I often wonder why is that BEV seems to kill 12v batteries like if it is going out of style...
The general culprit for early 12v death is temperature and deep discharge, but in a BEV the battery stays quite cold and the internal Systems should be able to keep it at a constant level even more than in an ICE.

At first I thought that it might be due to BEV insomnia... where the cars have trouble going to sleep mode by having one or another system keeping it awake. But it seems unlikely that all the manufacturers make the same mistake...or is it?
With the car shut off a modern ICE and BEV should have roughtly the same electric consumption so I don't thing the culprit is that as either...
So what is going on? Is the body control SW for all electric vehicle shit or is something deeper going on?
 

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@donald quite dramatic aren't you? 🤣
Jus F'in fed up with people asking the same questions I have already answered, professionally, as if it hasn't been answered and then they question what I put as 'opinion', as if they know better and offer their own solution.

But back to the discussion, I often wonder why is that BEV seems to kill 12v batteries like if it is going out of style...
....
So what is going on? Is the body control SW for all electric vehicle shit or is something deeper going on?
errrr .... there y'go, just like that.

Do you not see why I a frustrated and not wanting to do this any more? You guys don't seem to want me to tell you the answer, so just go figure it out for yourselves now, I am sure you can figure it and know better.
 

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LEAF N-TEC 62KW
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@donald quite dramatic aren't you? 🤣

But back to the discussion, I often wonder why is that BEV seems to kill 12v batteries like if it is going out of style...
The general culprit for early 12v death is temperature and deep discharge, but in a BEV the battery stays quite cold and the internal Systems should be able to keep it at a constant level even more than in an ICE.

At first I thought that it might be due to BEV insomnia... where the cars have trouble going to sleep mode by having one or another system keeping it awake. But it seems unlikely that all the manufacturers make the same mistake...or is it?
With the car shut off a modern ICE and BEV should have roughtly the same electric consumption so I don't thing the culprit is that as either...
So what is going on? Is the body control SW for all electric vehicle shit or is something deeper going on?
No one knows. I wish we did.
Monitoring the discharge current when the electronics are asleep would highlight any excess drain.
In the Leaf's case, the DC-DC converter is activated if the 12v battery voltage drops, even when the vehicle is asleep. (this is stated in the handbook) However, if the traction battery SOC is very low I doubt the 12v battery would be charged up.
 

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Jus F'in fed up with people asking the same questions I have already answered, professionally, as if it hasn't been answered and then they question what I put as 'opinion', as if they know better and offer their own solution.


errrr .... there y'go, just like that.

Do you not see why I a frustrated and not wanting to do this any more? You guys don't seem to want me to tell you the answer, so just go figure it out for yourselves now, I am sure you can figure it and know better.
Hei don't blame me! I know jack shit about desulfation cycles or whatnot..

I'm a good old mechanical engineer Im still learning all this electrical stuff 🤷‍♂️
 

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I'm not against smart chargers, desulphating but...
We had first battery failure 8 months after the car was bought. Following many failures Hyundai put new battery 4 months later. So I purchased smart charger and was regularly charging the battery every 2-4 weeks (with exception of 2 months in summer 2020 when I was away and drove the car every single day). No dash cams connected to always live, no dongles, not leaving lights on, no welcome lights, etc. The battery started dying in exactly the same pattern 8 months later (first various 12v messages on dash, then real flat battery).
The smart NOCO did nothing to save the battery.
So we are now on third battery (also sensor was replaced this time and software updated). With 4hrs charging pattern now finally working I hope the battery will last longer. And hopefully BM2 will be better investment as it will at least shed some light on what is happening to the battery (charging, resting voltage etc).

Meanwhile 15yrs old polo (battery replaced at age of 9) is siting on drive unused for weeks and weeks. And starts every time :LOL:
 

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I'm in a similar position - minimal knowledge of Chemistry, like Prof.X, but keen to understand what's going on. I know from my own experience over last 8 years that Ampera's like to destroy their batteries, usually these last 3 years ok, then you learn to keep your eyes open. The original Delco lasted 3 years fine, did about 20k miles on 1st owner, then suddenly failed, voltage dropped <10V and damaged the car while attempting to start a charge & pull the contactors in, which would need a short but high-current pulse to do. Battery didn't quite manage this, bodged the job, and bodged the car at the same time.

The replacement Bosch S5 AGM lasted a further 3 years, another 40k miles, then the voltage on that slipped down to 11.9V momentarily. That was my cue to swap it out into wife's C1 & get another new battery, now a Lucas Fusion AGM.

I do wonder if EV sdon't work these batteries hard enough? There's none of that 30 seconds to a minute of hard cranking at 100 Amps or more happening. I wonder if lead-acids need the occasional Italian tune-up, a burst of really high current, just to shake the crud off the plates, or remove some really thin varnish-like build-up that could be happening; some insulation-like chemical layer that really needs to be chipped away to refresh the thing.

These are rather mechanical analogies, as that's my area of familiarity, but we do see build-up of crud happening in the Li-ion batteries, hence all the very subtle additives getting added in microscopic quantities to prevent this. I can't help wondering if the same sort of thing is happening inside these Lead-acid AGMs.

And I trust people like CTek to know what they're talking about when they offer desulphation modes in their battery chargers. They're a well respected brand.
 

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Just for the record: people buying fancy chargers will all be fine if you want to bring back to life a battery that has lost a part of its capacity. However, it is not necessary to buy a smart charger for regularly charging your battery. For that, you can use Utility Mode which will supply a constant charge to the 12V for as long as it's active. Together with a battery monitor, that will be all you need if you're at all worried about the SoC of the 12V.
 

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Cars have protection against "Load Dump" which are long pulses of up to 80v - caused by abrupt removal of loads and alternators continuing to push high current.

Unless the charger has a big warning in red letters saying that it must not be used when connected to a vehicle, I wouldn't worry about it.
 

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Just for the record: people buying fancy chargers will all be fine if you want to bring back to life a battery that has lost a part of its capacity. However, it is not necessary to buy a smart charger for regularly charging your battery. For that, you can use Utility Mode which will supply a constant charge to the 12V for as long as it's active. Together with a battery monitor, that will be all you need if you're at all worried about the SoC of the 12V.

Sulphation is cumulative.

As it builds up the charging is less and less effective.

The basic problem is that there is no way to tell the state and health of charge in a 12V on the open circuit voltage alone.

Relying on a readout to tell you what electrical power to send to a battery to charge it is 'an algorithm', and clearly these algorithms aren't working well in particular usage cycles.

Cranking batteries are simply the wrong sort of battery anyway. If it were a VRLA then it'd charge more efficiently, and once charged use less power to maintain.

The correct solution, if I might put it that way, would be to change the battery technology, not to change the charging strategy. Lead acid like periods of constant charging.

I'm also beginning to think that the way the 12V is used during HV battery charging is also going to play its part. If a car does an 8 hour charge with a measly 13V being generated then this will kill the battery. It'll maintain it, but will eventually kill it. Needs to be over 13.6V for battery maintaining in a circuit, and this will also vary according to the actual plate metallurgy so no one size fits all other than over 14V. But again I'd probably not want to charge at over 14V all the time, this can lead to its own problems.

It'd makes sense for the HV battery 'system' to fully isolate itself from the 12V lead acid, during charging processes but that sounds like a lot more parts, which isn't going to happen to help out some given smaller fraction of people that have issues.

I'm still inclining towards the Bentley. Maybe the solution Bentley have introduced is the way to go; as the manufacturers 'know' there is a heavy vampire drain, they include a second battery that is isolated from the main system, until and unless the key is inserted in the slot and rotated the opposite way. One way to start but if it is flat, then rotate it the other to activate the second battery to crank.

Two batteries. That is the key. If you don't have one, buy one and leave it in the car somewhere for when you need the Bentley solution.
 

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2020 Ioniq 38 2016 Leaf 30 gone
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Referencing back to post #2, replacing the failing Leaf’s battery first rather than buying the Ctek charger and faffing about swapping batteries backwards and forwards would probably have been more cost and time effective. It was during the first lockdown and the car wasn’t used for months, silly boy I should have woke it up a few times...

The original Leaf battery was over 4 years old by then and probably beyond saving by the Ctek’s recovery mode.
 

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Ah! You've caught me out! It's all BS, just like people claiming to have unexpected flat and damaged batteries in BEVs. We're just making it all up.

heh. And we thought we could just hoodwink you into thinking there's a real problem here.

(As I approach a point where I am now seriously in a position to contemplate early retirement, I do wonder WTFingPoint was in me spending 25 years becoming a Chartered Engineer, now we're rolling into the "post-modern" world where opinion outweighs scientific and engineering fact. Why did I bother, when people that know nothing about this field think they have more to say about it than me? Over to you guys, I'm out of here. Done with 12V. If anyone ever thinks someone might benefit from being pointed to my posts, feel free. I'm not playing here any more.)
We appear to live in a post-truth age where competence and experience are replaced by myths and misinformation like the 5G/Virus conspiracy theories which don't help anybody. For me I find I can contribute some of my competence and experience and if someone wants to naysay it (google that) then I don't really care. In the end if you don't follow the science and the experience, at best you are not going to solve the problem and at worst you could cause some very expensive damage to your car.
 
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