Speak EV - Electric Car Forums banner
1 - 19 of 19 Posts

·
Registered
2021 Nissan Leaf SV Plus with tech
Joined
·
53 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Interesting discussion with "Thomas" of customer "support" division of Nissan. When pressed about how to interpret the (attached) owner's manual section of V2X, the rep would only answer with a canned response that my vehicle does not support any V2X capabilities - and that it is experimental at this point.

I asked that this issue be escalated further to someone that can actually explain their (IMO contradictory) statements in the manual, he continually repeated that it had been escalated to himself and that my vehicle does not support V2X capabilities - talking to a wall!
:roll:


So, I'd guess that for us that have repeatedly been told that only a couple of (CHAdeMO) based vehicles are V2X enabled (Leaf and a Mitsubishi BEV), that this is false information - according to Nissan about the Leaf at least. Be interesting what Mitsubishi will state as a policy about V2X.

Book Font Publication Paper Paper product
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,992 Posts
I can confirm all UK LEAFs with CHAdeMO have had support since 2013.

(We partner with Nissan on a couple of V2G projects.)

Sent from my SM-N976B using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
2021 Nissan Leaf SV Plus with tech
Joined
·
53 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Certainly a surprise to me to get such a negative type response with no technical explanation of any kind. I'd guess that the bidirectional protocols are contained in my CHAdeMO charge system - and it seems clear from the actual description in the manual that NIssan is concderned about battery temperatures using any V2X "charger". I did expect to get some guidance on power limitations and/or number of daily cycles - related to a warranty situation. It was actually quite disgusting that they assigned this task of repeating a canned response to a "customer support" person - what is Nissan thinking??? V2X is the future of grid stability, "renewable" proliferation and to me the most obvious answer to grid resilience - especially as "fleets" realize the advantages (and the proper vehicles are available).
 

·
Registered
LEAF N-TEC 62KW
Joined
·
2,893 Posts
Certainly a surprise to me to get such a negative type response with no technical explanation of any kind. I'd guess that the bidirectional protocols are contained in my CHAdeMO charge system - and it seems clear from the actual description in the manual that NIssan is concderned about battery temperatures using any V2X "charger". I did expect to get some guidance on power limitations and/or number of daily cycles - related to a warranty situation. It was actually quite disgusting that they assigned this task of repeating a canned response to a "customer support" person - what is Nissan thinking??? V2X is the future of grid stability, "renewable" proliferation and to me the most obvious answer to grid resilience - especially as "fleets" realize the advantages (and the proper vehicles are available).
Explain why Nissan are switching to CCS for newer models? Seems they are not interested in V2X at all.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,992 Posts
Explain why Nissan are switching to CCS for newer models? Seems they are not interested in V2X at all.
You've assumed its only CCS on these vehicles.

Sent from my SM-N976B using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,992 Posts
The Ariya is CCS, no chademo, I expect the Leaf's replacement to be CCS too since chademo is being dropped.
Yes it has CCS but are you sure it won't also have another connector?

Images show a charge flap on either side. e.g. here:

This is definitely a CHAdeMO connection on the car and appears to have a vehicle to building label in the same image ;-)


Sent from my SM-N976B using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
LEAF N-TEC 62KW
Joined
·
2,893 Posts
There are no EVs that have both CCS and chademo ports. The other port will be a Type 2, which is 7.4kw single phase and 22kw 3phase on the 87kw models.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,992 Posts
There are no EVs that have both CCS and chademo ports. The other port will be a Type 2, which is 7.4kw single phase and 22kw 3phase on the 87kw models.
New London taxi has both...

Sent from my SM-N976B using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
275 Posts
We'll have to see what a final Ariya has but...
1. Muxsan in the Netherlands can now convert some existing Nissans to have both. (I think just the vans at the moment, but it's early days.)
2. CCS and Type 2 ports are usually combined into one hybrid port, so why would they be separate on the Ariya?
3. In Japan, Nissan continues with Chademo, as it is the dominant rapid charge port standard there. (Perhaps the two port Ariya was Japanese spec?)

So, it's certainly possible to have both, and it would be pretty cool to have such a versatile vehicle. However, given the extra cost and limited benefit, I would still be surprised if we see Chademo on UK Ariyas as standard. A small chance that it would be an option, if Nissan are up for it?

Kind regards
- Garry
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
275 Posts
Also, about V2X, a friend of ours is currently using their Leaf (Gen 2 for sure, 40kWh, I think) in a V2X trial of some kind. I asked him if I could get a V2X charger, but he said no :(

He only has one as he is a professor doing research in the field. In the UK at least, it is all very experimental and the compatible chargers are many £ks.

It would be quite cool if works out though. Tesla currently charge around £10k for a 13.5kWh (usable) PowerWall. That's a bit cheeky given a wholesale battery price of around $100/kWh (OK, I know there is more to the system than just some dumb batteries, but still...). At that rate, my brand new 62kWh (approx. 56kWh usable) Leaf is worth more as a smart battery than I paid for it as a car.

Kind regards
- Garry
 

·
Registered
2021 Nissan Leaf SV Plus with tech
Joined
·
53 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
The issues that I face:
  • I've invested many $$'s in a really nice EV - like it much better than my Gen 1 2012 Leaf in so many ways. The "investment" was predicated on using the CHAdeMO as a source of battery power/energy. Note that the 2012 Leaf had not yet adopted the CHAdeMO bidirectional protocols - another reason to upgrade.
  • The US manual (same as other countries??) Clearly states the Leaf Plus has V2X capabilities that requires the CHAdeMO port and is a "vehicles manufacture with the V2X charge/discharge option"(??). Then explains all CHAdeMO equipped vehicles can use V2X (fast) chargers. I believe a more comprehensive explanation is required - not this canned statement that your vehicle is not V2X capable.
  • I don't want to cause a warranty issue by installing a V2G/V2H system (hopefully the dcbel system or equivalent). I do want to arbitrage energy costs (possible in Texas) and have a "blackout" capable system and of course will install an appropriate solar system.
  • If CCS protocols for bidirectionality are codified in a reasonable timeframe, I may have another decision to switch vehicles. The Ford Lightning looks promising, but too little information about the "Pro" system that can power a house. Might not be a big problem as my wife is liking the Leaf more and more and will need a new vehicle in a couple of years.
Any fact based information on these "issues" could be very helpful,
Mark
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
42 Posts
I, I'm sure like many others favoured the leaf and CHAdeMO some 2-3 years ago as a great upcoming option for battery storage.
Trials were underway with one area District Network Operator here in the UK.
The criteria for the trail was the car had to be leased via a provider 'like Octopus', with other criteria.
The V2G charger being included in the deal, being handed back after the three years.
Restricted to a limited number of participants. Presently appears to not being extended to other District Network Operators.

My take, and this is just my take, on this V2X standard, is the car is ready and enabled, but you have to use the specific charger / Inverter unit which by all accounts is far from cheap, plus your area Electricity DNO has to also approve connection, which is another major stumbling block.

In the mean time CCS, in particular Tesla are also making moves about V2x options.

Its clearly going to happen, but how & when who knows.
Lets also consider the manufacturers are placing a warranty on the battery for motoring, which they know how to monitor.... extensive use of a battery for V2x could impact on the EV battery life so car manufacturers are not going to engage with this technology easily... But Tesla being a technology company, already a well established home battery storage provider are better placed when general adoption takes place.

So who knows......
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,591 Posts
A good few cars have dual charge ports.
The Etron & GT, the taycan, the LEVC varients...

It helps with connectivity as well as posts tend to be on one side of a parking bay or drive so easier hookup.

It would be nice if nissan did ship the Ariya with Chademo to Europe still and just had the Type2 port swapped for CCS and allowed either chademo or CCS to be used for charging but let's be honest. The costs for it, complexity of having 2 charging standards in one vehicle to keep patched up to date isn't going to be cheap, easy or fun.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
Hi Mark,

Interesting question you pose.

I don't know about the US, but here in the UK Nissan changed the Leaf's warranty in 2019 to include this new paragraph

148685

As I understand it there are two domestic bi-directional chargers approved in the UK - neither of which are available for retail. Both are deployed in small numbers regionally in pilot projects.
One is manufactured by Indra, the other called Quasar is made by Wallbox.

I did a quick google and in the US you could contact Wallbox or Nuvve, though again I don't think either are ready for retail.

So assuming Nissan US have amended their warranty the question for Thomas is "Can I have the list of 'NISSAN approved Vehicle to Grid systems', please?"
 

·
Registered
2021 Nissan Leaf SV Plus with tech
Joined
·
53 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Neil - thanks for forwarding the warranty section. The discussion with Thomas could not go further than essentially telling me my vehicle is not equipped for V2X. He would not answer any other way - with the exception that the current V2X work is "experimental".

I'm most hopeful that the Canadian company that manufactures dcbel will be supported by all CHAdeMO configured OEMs. dcbel has all the functions that make V2X highly beneficial to me - solar ready, emergency backup (V2H), and ability to arbitrage energy (V2G). If Nissan can provide reasonable guidance on V2X limitations to protect their warranty, I'm quite sure I can live with that as emergency backup is very infrequent and energy arbitrage will be power limited by the inverter system and generally only economical during the "peak" energy months. I know this as our energy transition team studied two years of Texas energy costs (ERCOT) and proved substantial cost savings/generation during a few "peak" sessions. We also worked closely with Nuvve as they (IMO) are the leaders in US V2X development.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
2 things:

Firstly, I wonder if we are going about this the wrong way. Maybe it's the charger manufacturers who should be talking to Nissan so they can advertise as approved.

Secondly, I don't know if you've seen these

The viability of vehicle-to-grid operations from a battery technology and policy perspective - ScienceDirect

and

On the possibility of extending the lifetime of lithium-ion batteries through optimal V2G facilitated by an integrated vehicle and smart-grid system | Elsevier Enhanced Reader

The technicalities are beyond me - but my takeaway is that there is sweet spot of V2G usage that actually slows degradation if you can find it.

I looked at dcbel - potentially market leaders for their integration software IMO. They claim:

  • Battery Degradation Costs: Calculating the cost of charging and discharging your stationary battery or EV over time. A critical consideration, as batteries do degrade over time and are not cheap to replace. Lithium-ion batteries can last 10 years or more so ensuring that they are managed in an optimal way can have a non-trivial impact on its lifespan.
and
  • Battery Charge/Discharge Schedule: A battery charge/discharge schedule describing the energy profiles injected into the batteries or drawn from the batteries.
  • EV Charge Schedule: A schedule describing the energy profile to be used for charging the EV based on best practices for that make and model.
  • EV V2X Schedule: A vehicle-to-home and vehicle-to-grid schedule illustrating the energy profiles drawn from the EV battery and injected into the home and/or grid.
I don't know if this means they have found the sweet spot for a Leaf.

Perhaps a tough issue for Nissan is that poor V2G management could trash a battery before the warranty is up
 

·
Registered
2021 Nissan Leaf SV Plus with tech
Joined
·
53 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Yes, our team studied all these issues with what scant information was available (been before the pandemic). Our conclusions:
  1. V2X could provide a much less expensive capital investment to form a home microgrid than conventional power walls - with substantially higher storage capacity
  2. V2X would require "approved" chargers at work, in addition to the approval of home microgrid power converters (dcbel) by the OEMs
  3. V2X would provide income to home energy systems - at least in Texas were energy can be purchased (and sold) at cost.
  4. Large fleets have the highest potential of V2X benefits of meeting carbon goals, extraordinary resilience and cost savings.
  5. It appeared that for many commuters, a V2X based home micorgrid would likely increase the life of most EV batteries by closely monitoring battery conditions at all times when "hooked up" and treating them gently, especially for those stuck with the alternative of QC commercial charging.
Nuvve has most of this already figured out - except of course they don't have the system that dcbel claims to have. There will be growing pains, but I'm dedicated to experiencing them ASAP. To me, the end game is a much more stable grid and ability to bring on more solar energy - all with the eventual 10, maybe 100's of tera-watt-hrs rolling around the world, possibly in a world in which we need careful prioritization of where to apply battery energy storage and making our grids more resilient (DERs).

Thanks for the articles - will take time for all the "proofs" - and probably longer for the "regulators". GenerLink is a great example of an innovative, simple piece of equipment that could provide an easy, code compliant, safe way to provide home backup - whether it be a propane generator or an EV. However, only a few transmission regulators will allow it.
NOTE - these are my opinions - predicting the future can be folly :unsure: .
 
1 - 19 of 19 Posts
Top