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Discussion Starter #1
I think I have come to the conclusion that the new e208 will not come with a heat pump. One of the YouTube reviewers suggested that a heat pump was fitted, but nothing in the Peugeot literature supports this. I viewed an e208 at my local dealer, and a representative from Peugeot confirmed that it does not have one. I also double checked with another dealer and received the following reply "So regards to the heat pump, it uses a battery cooling system, which works like a petrol or diesel, using the heat from the car as its running, which wouldn’t reduce your range". I am not sure I fully understand what he is telling me, but I do feel Peugeot salesmen are not yet up to speed with EVs!

I do have a pre-order for a VW ID3, which I was minded to cancel because I think the e208 is a better looking and more affordable (and because the ID3 First Edition does not come with a heat pump in the UK). However, I am now having second thoughts.

The lack of a heat pump on the e208 could bring its winter range down to something close to my 40kWh Leaf. Maybe I need to wait until full production of the ID3 starts and order a 58kWh with a heat pump? I hope to get an extended test drive in an e208 in order to test its realistic winter range.
 

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I kind of see what you’re saying, but remember that a heat pump doesn’t magically enable battery cells in cold weather to regain the capacity they lose.

A heat pump will help range if you want to keep the cabin warm in the winter, as it avoids use of the resistive heater, but you can mitigate that by turning the cabin heat down and the heated seats up.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I find it difficult to accept that it is necessary to accept compromises, just because I drive an EV, although you are absolutely correct about the use of heated seats. However, I cannot see my wife being happy if I tell her to turn the cabin heating down. Heat pumps will continue split opinion, some feeling they are essential in the UK and others finding alternative ways of maintaining winter range.
 

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My Zoe has a heatpump. It was minus 1 today, the pump was pulling 4kW in use to heat the car to 22 degrees. Normally when its cool its only about 2kW.

The MG I'm getting is resistive heater, not sure what people are pulling, lets say 6kW. The thing is the Zoe heats up well enough, takes maybe a minute or so to start pushing out warm air, but then needs to keep running at 3+kw to keep the heat gently wafting out the vents. From what I've read the MG heats really fast and is like the surface on the sun within 30 seconds and requires you to turn it down.

Swings and roundabouts.

FYI, Tesla don't use heat pumps. They use resistive. So yeah their packs are big but then they still use simpler tech.
 

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I find it difficult to accept that it is necessary to accept compromises, just because I drive an EV
An EV is by its nature a compromise in comparison to some of the features that exist in ICE, but equally has features that ICE don't. The lack of rejected heat energy from the ICE means that the EV has to separately access the energy stored in its batteries to provide the heat, and then we are in the normal argument about battery capacity.
Heat pumps are a much more efficient way of heating an EV, but are complex with the additional trade off of cost and future maintenance.
It is interesting that Peugeot originally claimed that the e208 would have a heat pump, but are now silent on the issue. They devote 3 pages of the brochure to explaining how ad-blue works despite its relevance to diesels only, but as the e208 has other explainers it is hard to prove its omission by a lack of information. Why not write to Peugeot UK and ask?
 

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I find it difficult to accept that it is necessary to accept compromises, just because I drive an EV, although you are absolutely correct about the use of heated seats. However, I cannot see my wife being happy if I tell her to turn the cabin heating down. Heat pumps will continue split opinion, some feeling they are essential in the UK and others finding alternative ways of maintaining winter range.
I guess you’re in the first camp then?

I’d be surprised if the e-208 ended up with worse winter range than a 40 kWh Leaf, as it’s already 25% up in capacity, and even in the most optimistic/best case scenario I can’t see how a heat pump will make that up.
 

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FYI, Tesla don't use heat pumps. They use resistive. So yeah their packs are big but then they still use simpler tech.
And suffer considerable range loss in very cold conditions because of it, despite the battery pack itself having heating and cooling. Just look at the poor range figures in winter the Model 3 SR+ is achieving compared to an e-Niro or Kona, even when you account for the difference in battery size.

Efficiency losses in a cold unheated battery exist but are overrated - they are far less than the difference in energy consumed by a resistive heater vs a heat pump. In a UK climate a Heat pump can have a coefficient of performance of up to about 3, that means 1/3rd the energy for the same amount of heat output. 2kW will give you the same heat into the cabin that 6kW would from a resistive heater. When you consider that it only takes about 5kW to push a car along at a constant 30mph that is pretty significant...

And for very cold conditions where a heat pump would not be very effective the car falls back to (or is assisted by) a resistive heater anyway, so you get the best of both worlds with the car automatically deciding whether to use the heat pump, the resistive heater or a bit of both.

It's a bit of a no brainer really...
 

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And suffer considerable range loss in very cold conditions because of it, despite the battery pack itself having heating and cooling. Just look at the poor range figures in winter the Model 3 SR+ is achieving.

Efficiency losses in a cold unheated battery are far less than the energy consumed by a resistive heater. In a UK climate a Heat pump can have a coefficient of performance of up to about 3, that means 1/3rd the energy for the same amount of heat output. And for very cold conditions where a heat pump would not be very effective the car falls back to (or is assisted by) a resistive heater anyway, so you get the best of both worlds.

It's a bit of a no brainer really...
Not to appear argumentative, but people keep writing stuff like this.

So, to help me and anybody else understand, how does that translate into mileage achieved on one charge?

I know that heat pumps are more efficient than resistive heaters, by and large, but what would it mean over a 100 mile 3 degrees C journey for example?

How does it solve the 10-20% reduction in capacity that you’re starting with having a cold battery pack, even if they’re actively heated?
 

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On the assumption that you run at a constant 50 mph and the car is pre-heated only around 2 kWh. But that is a best case scenario - the saving on a typical start from cold is another 2 kWh meaning that if you don't pre-heat and stop on the way it'll be 6 kWh saving. And at the other extreme, if you use your vehicle for short journeys and don't have a charge point then you might use more heating up each time than for the journey itself without a heat pump.
Each to their own - I like the idea technically but worry about the long term reliability and question whether the £700+ additional price (when specified as a factory option in a Golf) is worth it? I'm not aware of them being unreliable in the Gen2 LEAF.
 

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I like the idea technically but worry about the long term reliability and question whether the £700+ additional price (when specified as a factory option in a Golf) is worth it?
This is the crux of it I think, trying to establish if the juice is worth the squeeze, to use a terrible phrase!

I’m feeling that if you pre-heat the battery and car, and then start a long journey even with only the resistive heater, you’re probably not going to gain very much, unless it’s very cold and you want the heat high.

Conversely, you might benefit from a heat pump if you start from cold and do lots of short journeys, but in that scenario unless you’re doing a heck of a lot of them then you might not see £800 worth as your battery will last the day anyway.

I think the fact that I can’t find anywhere a detailed explanation from any manufacturer of what the actual proven benefits are of a heat pump equipped vehicle over one without says a lot.

I get the tech, well in homes and offices at least, and I know they’re more energy efficient than resistive electric heaters in a range of scenarios, but for me the jury is out on what that actually means for a mid size battery electric vehicle in terms of extra miles/extra heat or whatever.

Why does it all feel like smoke and mirrors?!
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I took the advice of dk6780 and wrote to Peugeot. The good news is that the e208 does in fact have a heat pump. Winter range should be much better than the Leaf (due to the larger battery and battery heating) and will be close to the ID.3 First (which, apparently, will not come with a heat pump in the UK).
 
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