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Discussion Starter #1
Is anyone signed up to the Electric Nation V2G trial?

I’ve looked at it and it appears to be such a bad deal that I must be missing something.

The trial uses the concept of a “full charging cycle”, which means being plugged in from 1800 to 0500. You can’t get delayed at work, go out after work or stop on the way home if that makes you arrive after 6pm. Once at home, you can’t go out, not to take the kids to football, go to the supermarket, out for a meal or see friends because the car has to stay at home.

In between the charger installation and the start of the trial (3-4 months) you are asked to do this for zero incentive, no export payments, no availability payments.

For the duration of the trial, if you plug in 15 times a month, you get £10, or 66p for each time you immobilise your car for probably the most useful part of the day. If you endure that, at the end of the trial you get to give all that money back, plus the same amount out of your own pocket for the privilege of continuing to do it.

Apparently it’s great because you get a £5k charger for £250 but it doesn’t take a genius, or a trial for that matter, to work out that if it’s a crap deal at £250, you‘d have to be genuinely mad to pay £5k.

If that’s the business model for V2G, it’s doomed.

I‘ve done the first stage of the application process because the next stage is a phone call for them to explain the conditions and even though I have read it multiple times, I think I simply must have misunderstood it.
 

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Discussion Starter #2
I had the call with Electric Nation today. It appears I didn’t misunderstand it, it really is that bad.

Two more incentives to join: if you buy energy and store it, they can export it out of the car and so far they are not offering any export payment so basically they take the energy you paid for but don’t pay you for it.
Also, if you choose not to keep the V2G charger, they will only reinstall any existing charger if it complies with the regs. As the regs have been updated a couple of times in the last few years, anything that was installed long enough ago that you won’t breach your OLEV grant agreement by removing couldnt be reinstalled by Electric Nation, leaving you with a bill to get back to where you started.
 

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Yeah. There's far more value in cost reduction - synchronising charging with times of high energy production and low energy demand, i.e. overnight and weekends - than revenue generation from providing a service to help finetune the grid.

If you think the numbers are bad now, they will only get worse if lots of people join the scheme. Everyone is paid from the same pot.

V2G is a nice idea but load shifting is easier and more useful.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
You’re spot on. The problem coming over the hill is that everyone will want to charge their cars. Shifting charge from one car to another isn’t going to help but managed charging will.
 

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On those terms I'd think they'll struggle for volunteers unless they give the car away on the lease. Glad I didn't bother with it as initially it didn't look too bad.
 

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You’re spot on. The problem coming over the hill is that everyone will want to charge their cars. Shifting charge from one car to another isn’t going to help but managed charging will.
Yes sorry, that's what I meant by load shifting. Not between cars but over time.
 

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looks terrible. How much net energy is it likely to export overnight? It's a good idea on the basis of adding a significant amount of grid storage into the grid, but certainly doesn't seem worth the hassle! I can't see it going anywhere as CCS doesn't support it does it, and most cars are CCS now.
 

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As we move forward i think more people will get panels and home storage and then trickle into their batteries over night and ride out the peaks until the peaks slowly go down as more and more have their own power and storage... it may be 30-40years away mind.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Or use the home storage to reduce peaks in domestic usage and charge the car over night when the grid import is cheap. Most people with <4kW solar are unlikely to be able to store much more than they use in the house so even on the best days you probably wouldn't get much for the car.
 

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Depends on how the return to work goes. If it goes well then most people would fill an 8kwh pack from a 4kw array in a few hours during summer months and have plenty of excess then, so maybe home storage batteries will grow?
 

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Discussion Starter #11
8kWh goes a long way for domestic use, especially in the summer but it’s not a very big proportion of an EV battery pack, even if there were no conversion losses.

Depending on how much you use the car it could cover a days use but there’s no point importing electricity to run the house at peak time and then using stored solar for the car when you could defer charging until the unit rate is low.

Of course all of that is dependent on having a time of use tariff, otherwise you use the stored solar as much as you can and import whatever else you need.
 

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8kWh goes a long way for domestic use, especially in the summer but it’s not a very big proportion of an EV battery pack, even if there were no conversion losses.

Depending on how much you use the car it could cover a days use but there’s no point importing electricity to run the house at peak time and then using stored solar for the car when you could defer charging until the unit rate is low.

Of course all of that is dependent on having a time of use tariff, otherwise you use the stored solar as much as you can and import whatever else you need.
Good point. Average home electricity use is about 9-10 kWh per day. If granular time of use tariffs become available for homes, then using your stored electricity to cover all your electricity use during peak times would make a lot of sense. Even without solar, charging your home battery (fixed or car) and using it to cover your peak time usage could be viable.

Apparently it’s great because you get a £5k charger for £250 but it doesn’t take a genius, or a trial for that matter, to work out that if it’s a crap deal at £250, you‘d have to be genuinely mad to pay £5k.
The V2G charger costs £5k mainly because it's DC. Hence this trial is only accepting Nissan Leafs for the trial.
V2G will be more viable when cars carry the DC to AC inverters and people can use smart AC charge points at home and on-street. This has already been tested on-street and it works technically.
 

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Good point. Average home electricity use is about 9-10 kWh per day. If granular time of use tariffs become available for homes, then using your stored electricity to cover all your electricity use during peak times would make a lot of sense. Even without solar, charging your home battery (fixed or car) and using it to cover your peak time usage could be viable.


The V2G charger costs £5k mainly because it's DC. Hence this trial is only accepting Nissan Leafs for the trial.
V2G will be more viable when cars carry the DC to AC inverters and people can use smart AC charge points at home and on-street. This has already been tested on-street and it works technically.
Yes in normal times but due to covid, more people are working from home, even now. When things start to normalise I'm personally betting that most who have been WFH will only return to the office 1-3days a week so that's a lot of solar production that could go into a car battery as well once the house battery is charged...
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Agreed. I’ve used a lot more solar in the car since I’ve been wfh and I can’t see myself being out of the house 5 days a week for a long time. That said, once I do go in, I’ll be back to doing most of my charging at work.
 

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It’s an interesting time.

If you use an agile (small a) tariff and your large consumers (washing machine, dryer, dishwasher) have a delay start and you charge the car mainly at night then solar and battery payback (ie capital returned before any return is made) goes into 10 years plus (clearly usage dependant).

That fails my criteria for the use of that capital as I want to increase my wealth over time.

While boring to post about, for most people extra insulation will pay back far better in both comfort and heating cost - all this is based on NOW, not when FiT was big and juicy.
 

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ENV200 Owner
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I had the call with Electric Nation today. It appears I didn’t misunderstand it, it really is that bad.

Two more incentives to join: if you buy energy and store it, they can export it out of the car and so far they are not offering any export payment so basically they take the energy you paid for but don’t pay you for it.
Also, if you choose not to keep the V2G charger, they will only reinstall any existing charger if it complies with the regs. As the regs have been updated a couple of times in the last few years, anything that was installed long enough ago that you won’t breach your OLEV grant agreement by removing couldnt be reinstalled by Electric Nation, leaving you with a bill to get back to where you started.
I may be misunderstanding it, but if electric is exported to the grid at a cost to you, then that cost is covered. If you have an export tariff then you get paid for the export. I’ve just had my proposition documents so if I get permission, I will share them. I do think they need to be a bit less clandestine, although with twice as many applicants as there are spaces maybe not.
 

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I would like to see cars that can feed power back to the grid through type 2 AC connection. The cars already have charging circuits onboard, and inverters to drive the motor so it seems crazy to pay another £5k for a wall box with a charging circuit and inverter built in. I also think I would only want to do V2G or V2H on an agile type tariff. The car can compare the export and import prices with the prices paid for the power in the battery, and decide when to charge or supply power.
 

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I would like to see cars that can feed power back to the grid through type 2 AC connection. The cars already have charging circuits onboard, and inverters to drive the motor so it seems crazy to pay another £5k for a wall box with a charging circuit and inverter built in. I also think I would only want to do V2G or V2H on an agile type tariff. The car can compare the export and import prices with the prices paid for the power in the battery, and decide when to charge or supply power.
The agile tariff certainly makes it more attractive as the plan is the aggregation company will manage the charging to make best use of both import and export.
 
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