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I agree, but the whole basis for smart meters originally was to be able to just this, curtail loads remotely.
Are you sure? Because if that's the case they did a really poor job of thinking that one through. Given that no energy provider has a clue who has critical equipment installed at home, it would be entirely unethical to remove power from any home unless power supply failure was imminently possible.

Which is why they still require someone to physically attend the premises before doing so.

There are many wider benefits to smart meters. Removes manual meter reading, user data, dynamic pricing, better billing etc
 

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Are you sure? Because if that's the case they did a really poor job of thinking that one through. Given that no energy provider has a clue who has critical equipment installed at home, it would be entirely unethical to remove power from any home unless power supply failure was imminently possible.

Which is why they still require someone to physically attend the premises before doing so.

There are many wider benefits to smart meters. Removes manual meter reading, user data, dynamic pricing, better billing etc

Absolutely sure, yes. The original motivation behind smart meters arose from a review of the recovery from the "Great Storm" in 1987. That was a wake up call, as it was the closest the UK grid has come to a black start. As it was, they had to split the national grid into two parts, running asynchronously, to allow the North to keep running whilst the South of England collapsed like a row of dominos. In the lessons learned from that a decision was made to look at ways to introduce remote controlled load shedding for domestic supplies (it already exists for industrial supplies). There were years of talks about what to do and how to implement it, until technology matured to the point where nationwide connectivity could make it work.

Consequently, every smart meter has a remotely controlled isolation switch so that any supply can be remotely turned off. The 30 minute metering and remote meter reading was secondary to this key requirement to be able to load shed, and to gently restart, the grid in the event of a high demand event or a major outage.
 

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There are many wider benefits to smart meters. Removes manual meter reading, user data, dynamic pricing, better billing etc
I'd love to know how many of those have been achieved and at what cost.
Manual meter reading still exists, just less often and had already been replaced by self-reporting. Most people that I know don't make any use of their IHD, and like mine is in a drawer. Dynamic pricing such as Agile appears dead and to have been replaced by versions of E7 such as Go. And as for accurate billing .... :rolleyes:
All at what cost?
 

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Consequently, every smart meter has a remotely controlled isolation switch so that any supply can be remotely turned off. The 30 minute metering and remote meter reading was secondary to this key requirement to be able to load shed, and to gently restart, the grid in the event of a high demand event or a major outage.
Of course it does, but as I've already stated, it's effectively redundant in legislation and ethically, except in cases where a complete loss of power was imminent anyway. Which seems an odd oversight given they allegedly spent such a prolonged period thinking about it...
 

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I'd love to know how many of those have been achieved and at what cost.
Manual meter reading still exists, just less often and had already been replaced by self-reporting. Most people that I know don't make any use of their IHD, and like mine is in a drawer. Dynamic pricing such as Agile appears dead and to have been replaced by versions of E7 such as Go. And as for accurate billing .... :rolleyes:
All at what cost?
Manual meter reading still exists for Non-Smart meters...

Self reporting obviously takes place, but still requires manual meter reading to ensure it isn't fraudulent. There's much, much lower risk of fraud with smart meter.

All at a cost of about £364 per household I think I've seen estimated. Which is less than what I've saved on GO.

Agile isn't dead.

GO has already shown a measurable impact on the grid (see the frequency drop at 0030h which is now common. But GO Faster has shown that off-peak charging can be spread across several windows to limit that impact but at a street level and at a national level.

And on top of that, Smart meters give near real time measurement of domestic export from solar, batteries and V2X.

And the data. My lord. There's data at a level we've never seen before. Glorious data.
 

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Smart meters are about time of use tariffs which are paramount to widespread EVs and sell it to the leccy supplier as a means of cutting their costs for meter readings. I do not believe there is legislation in place to cut someones supply, actually the opposite without a court ruling.

A friend when they come to fit a smart meter, which he does not want, produces a document for the engineer to sign that the leccy co will pay costs for damages being disconnected.. At least a yr before he sees them again.
 

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Manual meter reading still exists for Non-Smart meters...
And for smart meters to ensure that they're not in error.
Self reporting obviously takes place, but still requires manual meter reading to ensure it isn't fraudulent. There's much, much lower risk of fraud with smart meter.
I wonder if the fraud is under-reporting or bypassing the meters?
All at a cost of about £364 per household I think I've seen estimated. Which is less than what I've saved on GO.
But as Go is similar to E7 you could have made that saving without a smart meter. Also, the members of this forum probably achieve bigger than average savings as most consumers are on single rate tariffs and taking no notice of their consumption.
Agile isn't dead
Agreed. I'd love to have the confidence to go back to it.
GO has already shown a measurable impact on the grid (see the frequency drop at 0030h which is now common. But GO Faster has shown that off-peak charging can be spread across several windows to limit that impact but at a street level and at a national level.
Agreed. But it could all have been achieved without smart meters.
And on top of that, Smart meters give near real time measurement of domestic export from solar, batteries and V2X.
For what benefit at current levels?
And the data. My lord. There's data at a level we've never seen before. Glorious data.
I too love data. So that's reason enough. :devilish:
 

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Absolutely sure, yes. The original motivation behind smart meters arose from a review of the recovery from the "Great Storm" in 1987. That was a wake up call, as it was the closest the UK grid has come to a black start. As it was, they had to split the national grid into two parts, running asynchronously, to allow the North to keep running whilst the South of England collapsed like a row of dominos. In the lessons learned from that a decision was made to look at ways to introduce remote controlled load shedding for domestic supplies (it already exists for industrial supplies). There were years of talks about what to do and how to implement it, until technology matured to the point where nationwide connectivity could make it work.

Consequently, every smart meter has a remotely controlled isolation switch so that any supply can be remotely turned off. The 30 minute metering and remote meter reading was secondary to this key requirement to be able to load shed, and to gently restart, the grid in the event of a high demand event or a major outage.
I'm sure back in the 70's when the suburban train lines around Glasgow were electrified, and before in-cab radios and mobile phones. The procedure was that if the supply tripped the driver reset his unit and attempted to restore power. If it tripped again, then all drivers in even numbered units waited until 0,10,20 minutes past the hour to reset and odd numbered units tried at 5,15,25 etc so effectively halving the instantaneous restart load on the system.

So even then they were thinking about soft starts.
 

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Of course it does, but as I've already stated, it's effectively redundant in legislation and ethically, except in cases where a complete loss of power was imminent anyway. Which seems an odd oversight given they allegedly spent such a prolonged period thinking about it...

There is no legislation that makes the remotely controlled isolator redundant at all. There is a non-binding agreement that suppliers (NOT the DNOs) will not use the remote disconnect capability to cut off people that haven't paid their bill, except when the normal conditions for disconnection have been met.

Any smart meter can remotely disconnect the supply for any other reason, under the control of the DNOs (not the suppliers) without any restrictions at all. The exact same principles apply as apply to disconnection for any other supply management reason, and remote disconnection for either load shedding or gradual recovery from an outage are completely legitimate reasons for using this capability. It's nothing unusual, every commercial customer has had a disconnect agreement, dependent on their tariff, for decades. All that's happened is that this has been extended to domestic consumers.
 

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And for smart meters to ensure that they're not in error.
I'm not aware of anyone doing a calibration check...

I wonder if the fraud is under-reporting or bypassing the meters?
Possibly, but hasn't really got anything to do with Smart meters, has it?

But as Go is similar to E7 you could have made that saving without a smart meter.
Kind of like saying a type writer is like a laptop. You can type a letter on both.

But a Smart meter allows that off-peak period to be adjusted for different users both in start time and duration. That means a street with constraint issues can use tariffs to incentivise residents charging at different times. Or localised region can be timed to coincide with a local industrial schedule.

Also, the members of this forum probably achieve bigger than average savings as most consumers are on single rate tariffs and taking no notice of their consumption.
And yet here we are with massive EV sales growth...

Agreed. But it could all have been achieved without smart meters.
Sure. By manually adjusting the dumb meter to record a different off-peak period, in every single home. Typewriter...

For what benefit at current levels?
Well firstly on Smart meter we're actually paying people for their actual export and not the assumed 50% export...

But also it allows better understanding of generation and grid loading during environmental conditions. Which might mean reducing the price of electricity in constrained parts of the grid to encourage self-consumption of solar, and avoid overloading the bottle necks.
 

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Absolutely sure, yes. The original motivation behind smart meters arose from a review of the recovery from the "Great Storm" in 1987. That was a wake up call, as it was the closest the UK grid has come to a black start. As it was, they had to split the national grid into two parts, running asynchronously, to allow the North to keep running whilst the South of England collapsed like a row of dominos. In the lessons learned from that a decision was made to look at ways to introduce remote controlled load shedding for domestic supplies (it already exists for industrial supplies). There were years of talks about what to do and how to implement it, until technology matured to the point where nationwide connectivity could make it work.

Consequently, every smart meter has a remotely controlled isolation switch so that any supply can be remotely turned off. The 30 minute metering and remote meter reading was secondary to this key requirement to be able to load shed, and to gently restart, the grid in the event of a high demand event or a major outage.
Well they can't with mine as the damn thing doesn't get any signal.
 

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I'm not aware of anyone doing a calibration check...


Possibly, but hasn't really got anything to do with Smart meters, has it?


Kind of like saying a type writer is like a laptop. You can type a letter on both.

But a Smart meter allows that off-peak period to be adjusted for different users both in start time and duration. That means a street with constraint issues can use tariffs to incentivise residents charging at different times. Or localised region can be timed to coincide with a local industrial schedule.


And yet here we are with massive EV sales growth...


Sure. By manually adjusting the dumb meter to record a different off-peak period, in every single home. Typewriter...


Well firstly on Smart meter we're actually paying people for their actual export and not the assumed 50% export...

But also it allows better understanding of generation and grid loading during environmental conditions. Which might mean reducing the price of electricity in constrained parts of the grid to encourage self-consumption of solar, and avoid overloading the bottle necks.
All theoretical advantages that are being realised in a small percentage of cases at the moment. I love the theory, but doubt that a proper audit of the benefits achieved to date would justify the costs and the false starts. It is after all a typical Government IT project. ;)
 

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The maximum load for a single phase domestic supply is either 13.8 kVA or 15 kVA (depends on the DNO - our fairly new 100 A fused supply is 15 kVA). That means that a shower (typically around 9 kW to 10 kW) plus a 32 A charge point would exceed the maximum load set by the DNO unless the charge point could load limit to stay below the 65 A maximum.

There seems to be a fairly common assumption that the fuse rating sets the maximum load, but in reality the fuse rating is just that needed to protect the cables downstream of it. A 100 A fuse is OK for protecting 25mm² tails, whereas older 16mm² tails need protecting by a fuse no larger than 80 A. In both cases the supply power rating will be determined by whatever the DNO had set for the connection, not the fuse ratings.
Jeremy,
You have said this a number of times on this forum but i can find nothing to support it and i wonder if times have moved on. From the SSEN web site/application form
"
Typical service connections
A standard single phase service connection is capable of providing
a maximum capacity of 23 kW although many domestic connections
require less. This would be sufficient for a house with 5 bedrooms,
1 electric shower and no significant* loads. "
 

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Jeremy,
You have said this a number of times on this forum but i can find nothing to support it and i wonder if times have moved on. From the SSEN web site/application form
"
Typical service connections
A standard single phase service connection is capable of providing
a maximum capacity of 23 kW although many domestic connections
require less. This would be sufficient for a house with 5 bedrooms,
1 electric shower and no significant* loads. "
Nope, times haven't moved on, that figure is still being used for demand management and planning today. In fact SSEN plan internally using a very much lower figure - for example the PMT that supplies us supplies 16 other houses. It's rated at 100 kVA - easy to do the sums.

The key thing is the peak to mean ratio. The supply we have is rated to deliver 23 kVA peak, but our contract with SSE PD (now SSEN), dated May 2013, states clearly that the supply rating is 15 kVA (it's a tick box thing, 15 kVA is the highest). The peak rating is a short duration rating, for example the first few minutes of an oven or hob being on, boiling kettles, etc. The DNOs are mainly bothered about thermal management, so it's the mean current that they do most of their capacity calcs on. This all goes for a ball of chalk if people charge cars or home battery systems for long periods of time, which is precisely why it's mandatory to inform the DNO when installing equipment like this. The DNO need to know when a consumer has installed a high load bit of kit, so they can either modify their distribution network to allow for it, or insist that the consumer installs load limiting.
 

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What's going to be the cost of upgrading Smets-2 smart meters when the 3G wireless network gets reallocated/flogged off in a few years time?

I for one have zero need for a smart meter, I'm happy to home-report my figures monthly, I have my own hardware reporting domestic import/export every 5 seconds. I wonder what would happen to my FIT terms & conditions if I change meters, and I'm not convinced there's any benefit for me. I try hard to synchronise my EV charging with when my house is exporting to the grid, over the last few sunny days I've managed to cover 30% of this from my panels. Not a lot, but nice to be able to do anything at all in January!

Will the bulk of Smets-1 & 2 meters have covered their own mfr + installation costs by the time they get scrapped/replaced?
 

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What's going to be the cost of upgrading Smets-2 smart meters when the 3G wireless network gets reallocated/flogged off in a few years time?

I for one have zero need for a smart meter, I'm happy to home-report my figures monthly, I have my own hardware reporting domestic import/export every 5 seconds. I wonder what would happen to my FIT terms & conditions if I change meters, and I'm not convinced there's any benefit for me. I try hard to synchronise my EV charging with when my house is exporting to the grid, over the last few sunny days I've managed to cover 30% of this from my panels. Not a lot, but nice to be able to do anything at all in January!

Will the bulk of Smets-1 & 2 meters have covered their own mfr + installation costs by the time they get scrapped/replaced?

We're in a similar position, but can't have a smart meter until/if they get around to providing a mobile signal here, and there's no sign of that happening any time soon. A group of us have been looking to set up a small cell so we can get broadband and a phone signal (broadband here is pretty slow), but the costs are high, even with a bit of land donated for the equipment. I find it hard to see any benefit by having a smart meter, TBH, given that the house data logging system gives far more information than we'd ever get from one. The only thing that bothers me is that there may come a time when we get penalised for being unable to have one, by being stuck on legacy tariffs that are much more expensive. At the moment Economy 7 is cheaper than any smart tariff, so it's not a problem, but I can see that changing before too long.
 

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We're in a similar position, but can't have a smart meter until/if they get around to providing a mobile signal here, and there's no sign of that happening any time soon. A group of us have been looking to set up a small cell so we can get broadband and a phone signal (broadband here is pretty slow), but the costs are high, even with a bit of land donated for the equipment. I find it hard to see any benefit by having a smart meter, TBH, given that the house data logging system gives far more information than we'd ever get from one. The only thing that bothers me is that there may come a time when we get penalised for being unable to have one, by being stuck on legacy tariffs that are much more expensive. At the moment Economy 7 is cheaper than any smart tariff, so it's not a problem, but I can see that changing before too long.
Your Ecconomy7 tariff is tied to you having loads of other services from the same supplier. Are you sure you're getting value for money out of the whole bundle? They're not flattering you with seemingly good prices on your electric only to overcharge you for broadband (for example)?
 

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Your Ecconomy7 tariff is tied to you having loads of other services from the same supplier. Are you sure you're getting value for money out of the whole bundle? They're not flattering you with seemingly good prices on your electric only to overcharge you for broadband (for example)?

What other services? We're not tied to anyone, apart from the remainder of our broadband deal with Plusnet that has a few months to run, and that's got nothing to do with our electricity supply
 

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Jeremy,
Perhaps i need to contact SSEN to get to the bottom of this with no disrespect to yourself and thank you for the info.

This is a HUGE can of worms which i can imagine nobody wishes to adress. The DNO must be working on the principal "if it aint broke dont fix it".
Even with diversity then many houses who fit a EV charger must be contravening the rules as you explained them. Remembering that many houses that can afford a EV will also have higher demand than average.

I wonder how many electricians work to this rule - mine didnt. Most people will have no such contract with the DNO and not even know about it. I find it just mind boggling to be honest.
 

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Jeremy,
Perhaps i need to contact SSEN to get to the bottom of this with no disrespect to yourself and thank you for the info.

This is a HUGE can of worms which i can imagine nobody wishes to adress. The DNO must be working on the principal "if it aint broke dont fix it".
Even with diversity then many houses who fit a EV charger must be contravening the rules as you explained them. Remembering that many houses that can afford a EV will also have higher demand than average.

I wonder how many electricians work to this rule - mine didnt. Most people will have no such contract with the DNO and not even know about it. I find it just mind boggling to be honest.
The installer of any EVSE has to notify the DNO. Its then up to the DNO what they do with the information!
 
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