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Lee - wasn't yours pot-hole damage?


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Yes, I had pot hole damage that caused the tyre to bulge and created a vibration at various speeds. The wires had totally failed.
I missed it on my last car with the same tyres and ended up with a blowout. So am super cautious now.
Having said that, I still got over 50k out of the tyres, so shouldn't complain ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #42
Mine were certainly never going to make that distance. Now I have the Goodyears on the front I wish the Michelins had lasted less than the 25k they did! They are so much quieter and more positive with the direction changes. I won't care if these only last 20K if they grip like this all the way through!


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Guys, do we have any grounds to complain to Michelin about these tyres? I've put 15,000 on from 9th April. (25,000 total mileage from new) The car is a 13 plate but it's really a 2012 - the two front tyres have warped within a fortnight of each other.
:-(
 

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Guys, do we have any grounds to complain to Michelin about these tyres? I've put 15,000 on from 9th April. (25,000 total mileage from new) The car is a 13 plate but it's really a 2012 - the two front tyres have warped within a fortnight of each other.
:-(
Four years is not old for a tyre even if it is supposedly a new rubber mix for low rolling resistance.
In the US they get up to 100,000 miles from a set of tyres in far stronger sunlight so nothing new there.

These Michelin tyres are dangerous, no other word for it.
I have been driving for over 40 years and never had tyres break up and shed their tread as mine did. After 25,000 miles, I reckon I had another 10,000 miles of tread left on the fronts with hardly any wear on the rears.

Only apathy stopped me pursuing a claim against Michelin as I simply wished to get rid of the tyres as they were so unsafe and causing my car to steer towards the kerb.

Good luck to any who do so. I won't be buying any more from them.
 

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Before having my front tyres changed to Efficient grip performance tyres today I noticed the steering wheel twitching side to side about 50 mm each way between 30 - 40 mph. The muppets from the local Autocentre fitting the tyres said the Michelins looked fine despite me asking them to check for bulging or carcass damage. I doubt they actually checked them though. The vibrations have now gone but now I have another problem,the idiot fitting them manged to crush/ crease both sill covers with the lift despite me warning him they where delicate. I even tried to show him where the jacking points where but he told me he knew what he was doing and would I go back to the waiting room. Now they are insisting I drop the car of back to them so they can take an indetermined period of time to have repairs carried out at an undisclosed repairer, as if I would agree to that!!!
 

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Oh dear! Stupid idiots should know if you aren't sure then use the beefy suspension brackets or lift under the wishbone. Sills can even be plastic these days.
You need to get a proper quote from an independent, a chat to the manager and if that fails, solicitors letter is needed.

Bad situation.
 

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Oh dear! Stupid idiots should know if you aren't sure then use the beefy suspension brackets or lift under the wishbone. Sills can even be plastic these days.
You need to get a proper quote from an independent, a chat to the manager and if that fails, solicitors letter is needed.

Bad situation.
On the Ampera they are plastic covers that clip on over the top of the structural sill. I think the structural sill is undamaged so not as bad as it could have been.
I also tried to tell him to be careful with the TPMS sensors but got the same curt reply that he knew what he was doing. Luckily the sensors seem to still be working.
 

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UK Technical Manager- Michelin
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Hi Everyone
Firstly, I'm sorry you've been experiencing dissatisfaction with the our products. I'm not here to offer any excuses or shoot anyone down. I'm here to offer constructive assistance to our customers
I'm the chief engineer here in the UK and it's my job to monitor our products in the market and help customers out with technical queries.
The wear pattern shown in the pictures is due to the rubber thinning in areas, either through irregular wear, distribution of forces in the contact patch or tyre pressures, this leads to the shear strength of the rubber changing as it thins, and instead of flexion, twisting and re-forming, it flexes, and tears.
Again, not an excuse, just explaining whats actually happening to the tyres in service.

Because it looks terrible, we are quite happy irregardless of the cause to help customers through our complaints procedure, and we don't insist on you having our tyres again.

So if anyone want's to PM me, I'm happy to contact you individually and get this sorted.
Jamie McWhir
Michelin UK (Customer Engineering Support Manager)
 

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Hi @Jamie McW
I wish you had been on a few weeks ago as my old tyres will be a playground now.

They were perishing very badly on the edges but my main problem was due to pulling towards the kerb.

During the annual service, the dealership condemned the tyres and said I shouldn't drive the car!

Although there was plenty of tread left, I guess at least 15,000 miles for the front and 25,000 left on the rears, the rubber had started peeling away from the carcass, something I have never seen on any tyre with reasonable tread depth in 40 years of driving.

Because of this, I replaced all four tyres with Goodyear low rolling resistance tyres.

Guess what, the car doesn't pull at all and steers straight as a die.

My old tyres below.

Edit: The front tyres were like the rear top pic only a few weeks before the lower pic. They must have gone downhill rapidly and shredded in not more than a few hundred miles.
The car actually passed its MOT only a month before!



 

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I'm not crazy, the attack has begun.
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Hi Everyone
Firstly, I'm sorry you've been experiencing dissatisfaction with the our products. I'm not here to offer any excuses or shoot anyone down. I'm here to offer constructive assistance to our customers
I'm the chief engineer here in the UK and it's my job to monitor our products in the market and help customers out with technical queries.
The wear pattern shown in the pictures is due to the rubber thinning in areas, either through irregular wear, distribution of forces in the contact patch or tyre pressures, this leads to the shear strength of the rubber changing as it thins, and instead of flexion, twisting and re-forming, it flexes, and tears.
Again, not an excuse, just explaining whats actually happening to the tyres in service.

Because it looks terrible, we are quite happy irregardless of the cause to help customers through our complaints procedure, and we don't insist on you having our tyres again.

So if anyone want's to PM me, I'm happy to contact you individually and get this sorted.
Jamie McWhir
Michelin UK (Customer Engineering Support Manager)
Hello @Jamie McW it is brave of you to venture onto a public forum. However here it seems to me that it is populated mainly with well educated engineers and professionals, so there will be a strong discussion and little public mauling so I hope you will engage positively.

In my case, I will dive into the strong discussion, if I may!

The photo below, of one of my tyres (replaced by the vendor), demonstrates (IMHO) that your position, above, is not correct, or at least does not disclose the whole matter;-
example_tyre_JPGs.jpg


So you can see the same pattern of disintegration in the roots of the blocks, as well as on the blocks.

This discounts rubber thinning.

It also probably discounts shear stresses too, as they are [mostly] circumferential cracks on the blocks whereas these root defects include cross-width cracks.

Further, in this example, you can see cuts in the tyres which conveniently disclose degradation of the rubber in a radial pattern, away from the cuts. This points towards characteristic degradation of the material itself, arising from presumably some sort of environmental effect aggravating the progression of the degradation as the crack in the rubber propagates.

Clearly, a series of radial cracks emanating from a cut in the rubber cannot disclose the shear stresses on the tyres, because you can't have a shear stress in every direction at the same time!

So it seems to me that this example, of my own tyre, discounts rubber thinning and also shear stresses.

If I were to make a guess at this (as a Chartered Engineer in the field of environmental engineering) I'd have to make a guess it is UV aggravated degradation (as a factor) because we always see this on the outer edge of the tyre. I can't believe that on average ALL Amperas are toe-in, surely some must be toe-out, but we only see outer edge degradation like this.

I'll also comment on the replacement I got from the vendor - these tyres (the one above) failed the MoT because of this, so I contacted the vendor to discuss, who initially rejected the idea of replacing them, saying it was normal wear. When I took photos and explained they were Michelins, they almost immediately responded to the effect of "Ah, if they are Michelins, then no problem, it's a common problem", for the simple reason that your tyres are known to disintegrate like this in the motor vehicle trade.

If you aren't aware that 'Michelin tyre rot' is a well-known issue in the motor trade, now you do!!...

If you'd like to explain how my example above fits in with your explanation of rubber thinning and shear stress then please do respond, but please do expect a forthright discussion on it.

(PS I have two more of these still on the car, later tyres (DOT 2013), that do not as yet appear to be showing the dreaded tyre rot, but I'm looking forward to the right moment to get rid of them, to be honest about it....)
 

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UK Technical Manager- Michelin
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Donald/Russ

As a gradute Chemist and Engineer (ex F1..) I think I can happilly hold my own. I don't need to worry there.
I'm sure you are experts in your fields. This is mine :)

The picture you show, and the previous picture (on page 1) are two different things.
The tearing of the tread compound is a tearing due to the forces within the tread pattern.
The cracking and crazing is due to oxidation of the polymer/rubber on the tread compounds.

Two entirely different things, and we treat both of them equally importantly. As we do with everything in tyres

Regulations changed in 2008 (REACH regulations), banning the heavy aromatic oils we and other tyre manufacturers have been using for decades, as anti oxidants for rubber. Hence in the last decade rubber oxidation has gone backwards. The reasons behind the change were simple. The oils used in the factories were carginogens, hence represented a risk to those handling and mixing the raw materials. The waxes currently used aren't as effective, but sadly you can't really totally prevent oxidation, just try to reduce it.

I'll deal with any messages in my inbox individually to see what we can do.

Tyre dealers do know that a system and procedure is available to help our customers, and while I could chose to ignore it, I'm not going too. If they'd contacted me or I'd become aware earlier I'm sure I could have stepped in to help.
 

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Guys,
FWIW I've just taken a close look at my Michelins, fitted Sept 2012 (or just before) when the car was new. These have done about 25-30,000 miles (hard to be precise, I ran winters last winter & right now) and mostly have about 4mm tread remaining in the middle.

I can see no abnormal degradation in mine, so I'm happy with them. That said, I drive pretty gently, and hardly ever use max acceleration at low speeds. Thinking about that, I wondered; is it possible that the enormous torque available at zero mph means that anyone hoofing it a traffic-light grand-prix race is likely to be ripping the tread from the carcase? I suspect these Eco tyres weren't a special design for EVs, rather a general-purpose Eco tyre for all sorts of conventional ICE cars, and EVs just happen to benefit strongly from Eco tyres?
 

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Discussion Starter #54
Guys,
FWIW I've just taken a close look at my Michelins, fitted Sept 2012 (or just before) when the car was new. These have done about 25-30,000 miles (hard to be precise, I ran winters last winter & right now) and mostly have about 4mm tread remaining in the middle.

I can see no abnormal degradation in mine, so I'm happy with them. That said, I drive pretty gently, and hardly ever use max acceleration at low speeds. Thinking about that, I wondered; is it possible that the enormous torque available at zero mph means that anyone hoofing it a traffic-light grand-prix race is likely to be ripping the tread from the carcase? I suspect these Eco tyres weren't a special design for EVs, rather a general-purpose Eco tyre for all sorts of conventional ICE cars, and EVs just happen to benefit strongly from Eco tyres?
I can hardly claim I never floored it from a standing start when there are pictures of mine at Santa Pod. I still find it odd that torque which does not break traction can cause damage, so I am inclined to discount that possibility, as causative.


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I'm not crazy, the attack has begun.
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The cracking and crazing is due to oxidation of the polymer/rubber on the tread compounds.
On that we agree (as I suggested, UV accelerated breakdown is my guess) and as you say it looks like something else has happened (instead, or as well as) to the tyres on the first page.

The thing is, @Jamie McW, I have gone through at least 4 full sets of tyres, new to worn out (I aim to replace in whole sets) since 2008 and never seen this. This seems to particularly relate to DoT 2011 tyres fitted to Ampera, I am tempted to say a 'bad batch' but it must have been a heck of a large batch!

I used to consider Michelin the gold standard in longevity versus grip versus rolling resistance, I grew up with them, through a couple of sets each of MXV, MXV2 and MXV3 as they evolved during the 90's, but I am afraid this has turned me into a bona fide Goodyear customer for some years to come now.

If you want to offer me a trial of your next 'model' of tyre then I'd be happy to try them out, but I wouldn't be planning on paying for them. Sorry!
 

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Hi Everyone
Firstly, I'm sorry you've been experiencing dissatisfaction with the our products. I'm not here to offer any excuses or shoot anyone down. I'm here to offer constructive assistance to our customers
I'm the chief engineer here in the UK and it's my job to monitor our products in the market and help customers out with technical queries.
The wear pattern shown in the pictures is due to the rubber thinning in areas, either through irregular wear, distribution of forces in the contact patch or tyre pressures, this leads to the shear strength of the rubber changing as it thins, and instead of flexion, twisting and re-forming, it flexes, and tears.
Again, not an excuse, just explaining whats actually happening to the tyres in service.

Because it looks terrible, we are quite happy irregardless of the cause to help customers through our complaints procedure, and we don't insist on you having our tyres again.

So if anyone want's to PM me, I'm happy to contact you individually and get this sorted.
Jamie McWhir
Michelin UK (Customer Engineering Support Manager)
Hi Jamie

Thanks indeed for offering some advice on here. I wanted to challenge Michelin as both my front tyres warped within a week of each other. My tyre guy says it's a known issue with that Michelin tyre (turns out mine were 2011's by the way). He also said there's unlikely to be any cover due to the age of the tyre, regardless of tread/warp damage etc.
 

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Hi Everyone
Firstly, I'm sorry you've been experiencing dissatisfaction with the our products. I'm not here to offer any excuses or shoot anyone down. I'm here to offer constructive assistance to our customers
I'm the chief engineer here in the UK and it's my job to monitor our products in the market and help customers out with technical queries.
The wear pattern shown in the pictures is due to the rubber thinning in areas, either through irregular wear, distribution of forces in the contact patch or tyre pressures, this leads to the shear strength of the rubber changing as it thins, and instead of flexion, twisting and re-forming, it flexes, and tears.
Again, not an excuse, just explaining whats actually happening to the tyres in service.

Because it looks terrible, we are quite happy irregardless of the cause to help customers through our complaints procedure, and we don't insist on you having our tyres again.

So if anyone want's to PM me, I'm happy to contact you individually and get this sorted.
Jamie McWhir
Michelin UK (Customer Engineering Support Manager)
As per forum rules please disclose your commercial interest in your forum signature - edit here: Signature
 

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UK Technical Manager- Michelin
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Hi Jamie

Thanks indeed for offering some advice on here. I wanted to challenge Michelin as both my front tyres warped within a week of each other. My tyre guy says it's a known issue with that Michelin tyre (turns out mine were 2011's by the way). He also said there's unlikely to be any cover due to the age of the tyre, regardless of tread/warp damage etc.
Greg, while I respect your "tyre guy's" opinion. I'm the one in the UK who decides. I'm happy to help. Please get in touch through my Inbox and we will take it from there.
 

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Donald/Russ

As a gradute Chemist and Engineer (ex F1..) I think I can happilly hold my own. I don't need to worry there.
I'm sure you are experts in your fields. This is mine :)

The picture you show, and the previous picture (on page 1) are two different things.
The tearing of the tread compound is a tearing due to the forces within the tread pattern.
The cracking and crazing is due to oxidation of the polymer/rubber on the tread compounds.

Two entirely different things, and we treat both of them equally importantly. As we do with everything in tyres

Regulations changed in 2008 (REACH regulations), banning the heavy aromatic oils we and other tyre manufacturers have been using for decades, as anti oxidants for rubber. Hence in the last decade rubber oxidation has gone backwards. The reasons behind the change were simple. The oils used in the factories were carginogens, hence represented a risk to those handling and mixing the raw materials. The waxes currently used aren't as effective, but sadly you can't really totally prevent oxidation, just try to reduce it.

I'll deal with any messages in my inbox individually to see what we can do.

Tyre dealers do know that a system and procedure is available to help our customers, and while I could chose to ignore it, I'm not going too. If they'd contacted me or I'd become aware earlier I'm sure I could have stepped in to help.
 

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Interesting that there is a very similar problem with Michelin tyres on the Zoe forum.
 
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