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If we're being honest that's pretty much on the money for a small crossover in 0-60 and mpg. 150k is also fine for mileage as that would cover 18 years at current average mileage.
Big difference being only water coming out.
If they could sell it under £25k it could get rid of a lot of local emissions but I bet the price will kill it.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
If we're being honest that's pretty much on the money for a small crossover in 0-60 and mpg. 150k is also fine for mileage as that would cover 18 years at current average mileage.
Big difference being only water coming out.
If they could sell it under £25k it could get rid of a lot of local emissions but I bet the price will kill it.
Well I’ve got a shock for you - this is going to cost at least £50,000.

I think people will rather go for an iPace.
 

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I've never questioned how well EVs are performing in cold Norwegian winters (as let's be fair they aren't excellent on long journeys in relatively mild UK climate), but perhaps this is the niche that Hydrogen is there to fill. Cold, long distance driving in Alaska.

Not sure why do you'd choose a Hyundai 4x4 to do that though...


Durability testing has included high-altitude testing in Mount Evans, Colorado, at 14,000 feet; towing up the steep Towne Pass in Death Valley on a 127-degree Fahrenheit day; and cold starts at -22 degrees Fahrenheit in Alaska. That last point is a big deal, as fuel cell cars typically struggle to start and produce much power in cold weather. Jerome Gregeois, senior manager for eco powertrains at Hyundai America Technical Center, says the new fuel-cell crossover is ready to run in just 30 seconds in -22-degree conditions, where the Tucson needed 90 seconds to fully warm its systems. “In a matter of minutes you can have full power,” he says.”
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I've never questioned how well EVs are performing in cold Norwegian winters (as let's be fair they aren't excellent on long journeys in relatively mild UK climate), but perhaps this is the niche that Hydrogen is there to fill. Cold, long distance driving in Alaska.

Not sure why do you'd choose a Hyundai 4x4 to do that though...
They work just fine - why do you think pure EVs are at 20% market share in Norway?

Conversely it’s FCEVs that have a 30 second start up time in very cold weather. They also have a similar range hit as EVs in cold weather.
 

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I've never questioned how well EVs are performing in cold Norwegian winters (as let's be fair they aren't excellent on long journeys in relatively mild UK climate), but perhaps this is the niche that Hydrogen is there to fill. Cold, long distance driving in Alaska.

Not sure why do you'd choose a Hyundai 4x4 to do that though...
At that price I doubt it matters. There is no other power source (ev, ice - whatever) which could even get close to that as a cost to run.
For cheapness a £10k Dacia will do it. If you want a chance of coming back a £20k 4x4 from anyone who isn't a muppet will do it. If it must be zero emissions there are very few options.
 

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I like Hyundais. I'm on my second, the ix35 was a very good piece of kit, the Ioniq is great, my mother-in-law drives an i30 and it's a nice car. If we hadn't wanted to move away from diesel for good, we'd probably have bought a Tuscon as the ix35 replacement. You get shedloads of equipment as standard even on the base models and no premium option prices for the privilege of, say, auto folding mirrors (generally, it's "metallic paint" and that's it) and a good long warranty.

But hell will freeze over before I pay £50k for one no matter what the drivetrain.
 

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Toyota have said they're working on reducing the cost of the FC components by 50% - so that brings a Mirage, sorry, Mirai, down to ~£30k but then you've got all the issues of nowhere to fuel it, FC lifespan, can't fuel at home etc etc etc.

I think H2 is a great solution for trains, and it looks like we're getting one on test down in the South West pretty soon, but for cars....it just makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. I think all the funding from Govt going to battery tech research and charge point infrastructure kind of bears that out.
 

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Met a Hyundai ix35 FCEV at some lights today - looked like it was being demonstrated (3 people in the car).

They were a good quarter of a mile behind when I next looked in my mirror.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Met a Hyundai ix35 FCEV at some lights today - looked like it was being demonstrated (3 people in the car).

They were a good quarter of a mile behind when I next looked in my mirror.
This is the key reason they won’t catch on - at least you can make a high performance BEV. People will always want a performance variant, and this is quite hard with a FCEV.
 

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This is the key reason they won’t catch on - at least you can make a high performance BEV. People will always want a performance variant, and this is quite hard with a FCEV.
Seems to me it would be just as easy. The fcev is just an ev with a small battery and hydrogen range extender. I can't see how fitting more powerful motors would be any more difficult than in a bev?
 

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Seems to me it would be just as easy. The fcev is just an ev with a small battery and hydrogen range extender. I can't see how fitting more powerful motors would be any more difficult than in a bev?
Having a powerful motor doesn't help if the battery is small and can't provide the power you need to drive it.
 

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Having a powerful motor doesn't help if the battery is small and can't provide the power you need to drive it.
Indeed, just like a petrol range extender a "hydrogen range extender" (which is exactly what it is) can't provide the full peak motor power, it's up to the battery to do that, and that gets hard when the battery is smaller than the average BEV.

It would be interesting to know what percentage of peak motor power the fuel cell can actually produce - because if its relatively low (say 50% or less) then that would imply that a HFCV could not drive at high speed constantly without depleting the (relatively small) battery, just like a Petrol Rex...

Not so good for the autobahn perhaps... ;)
 

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For the Hyundai Nexo FCEV (linked earlier) we have some figures:
The fuel-cell stack itself generates 95 kilowatts of power, which coupled to the battery’s ability to deliver 40 kW, means a total of 135 kW is available for the driver motor.
So the fuel cell output is 70% of the peak motor power - better than I expected but still clearly a long way below 100%.

And while they state the battery can put out 40kW I don't see the actual kWh of the battery (it can't be that big if it can only put out 40kW - maybe 12kWh ?) so it wouldn't last long at full speed.
 

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For the Hyundai Nexo FCEV (linked earlier) we have some figures:

So the fuel cell output is 70% of the peak motor power - better than I expected but still clearly a long way below 100%.

And while they state the battery can put out 40kW I don't see the actual kWh of the battery (it can't be that big if it can only put out 40kW - maybe 12kWh ?) so it wouldn't last long at full speed.
Plus there's an additional limitation which is that it takes a few seconds for a fuel cell stack to ramp up power (longer than a petrol generator, and much longer than a battery) so if you need a sudden burst of power to overtake then you'll never get the kind of experience that you get in a BEV.
 

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Toyota have said they're working on reducing the cost of the FC components by 50% - so that brings a Mirage, sorry, Mirai, down to ~£30k but then you've got all the issues of nowhere to fuel it, FC lifespan, can't fuel at home etc etc etc.
Slight issue is that the FC components aren't the only driver of the £60K cost (which, I am sure I saw somewhere, is actually £120K cost but Toyota are eating half of it - can't find the source now).

The FC components itself are "only" $20,000 or so : https://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2017/06/f34/fcto_sa_2016_pemfc_transportation_cost_analysis.pdf (Page 68 onwards - there's "stack", "pump" and "BOP" systems).

So halving the cost of the FC components would only bring the cost down by $10000. No, I don't have a BOM for the rest of the car.
 

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While it should be fairly obvious which side of the BEV / HFCV argument I fall on, to play devil's advocate for a second I don't think we should focus too much on criticizing HFCV due to cost reasons alone - yes a HFCV is ridiculously expensive to buy right now, (if you even could buy one outright) but so were BEV's less than 10 years ago.

One need look no further than the original £38,000 sticker price of the Mitsubishi i-Miev/Peugeot Ion/Citroen C-Zero which was very quickly revised to a still very expensive £28,000 to get any to sell at all! And most of them ended up on lease for the first 4 years anyway as they were still too expensive to sell.

The same arguments of cost those of us in the BEV camp are using against HFCV are being used against BEV's by those in the ICE camp as well.

We are happy to say "but the cost of batteries have come down and will come down further" to ICE proponents, but don't seem to be willing to afford the same latitude towards HFCV's that their cost would or could also drop significantly if they were produced in significant numbers.

I think HFCV's will fail for technological and infrastructure reasons, not due to sticker price, although a high sticker price certainly won't help their cause.

Could the sticker price of a HFCV be reduced to that of an ICE with enough development and production in large quantities ? I think eventually, if they continued to be developed, yes. Can it be reduced to the cost of tomorrows mass produced BEV's ? I think the answer is almost certainly no, provided that battery prices continue to fall as they are now, and especially if we get a battery breakthrough.

A BEV is just so much simpler than a HFCV or ICE, so ultimately when we can get the battery cost down to what it really should be BEV's will win out on cost.

However sticker price is the least of the problems with HFCV, and some of its major problems can't be solved, with the biggest one being a hydrogen generation/transport and fuelling infrastructure which will never compete with charging on price, convenience or ubiquitous availability.

If Lithium Ion batteries had never been invented and we were still all using Nicads or even NiMH then the BEV's we know today wouldn't exist, and HFCV would have had a reasonable chance against ICE, if low emissions regulations followed the trajectory that they are currently following, making HFCV the only way to achieve the targets.

However that's not the world we live in. We do have Lithium Ion batteries and BEV's are here already, as is a somewhat usable charging network. Against this and a steadily increasing BEV range HFCV have no chance. Too late to the game, too few benefits and too many drawbacks.
 

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Having a powerful motor doesn't help if the battery is small and can't provide the power you need to drive it.
But they don't need to have a small battery. That's just the fluff which is being thrown out at the moment while it's in it's infancy.
For instance the i3 rex's motor can only make 34hp for it's 168hp output.
I've said a few times the rex needs more power to be a complete solution but it wouldn't need all that much more. Somewhere around the 50hp mark would do it in an i3 so it could cruise at any legal speed in any weather even if the heater is on max.
Transfer that to a crossover which is heavier and may have more drag and 75-100hp would be all that's needed with a half decent battery as a buffer.
Infact if the i3 got the fc from this thing it would have a constant 127hp available - it could still charge the battery on anything less than around 70% power.
 
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