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First they came for the Lorries, Then for the cars, then for???

893 views 44 replies 18 participants last post by  Duncan 
#1 ·
#2 ·
The trivially simple way to charge for road use is to apply elevated taxes to road fuel...

... oh, errr... yeah like there already is!

If you used to truck into Germany they'd tax you on the amount of fuel you carried across the border. Obviously the EU and all that saw that end. But we could start doing that once we're free of EU shackles.

Keep it simple.....
 
#5 ·
The trivially simple way to charge for road use is to apply elevated taxes to road fuel...

... oh, errr... yeah like there already is!

If you used to truck into Germany they'd tax you on the amount of fuel you carried across the border. Obviously the EU and all that saw that end. But we could start doing that once we're free of EU shackles.

Keep it simple.....
Like Donald said, there is already a simple and fair system in place.

But of course governments like nothing better than to embark on expensive IT systems, or to outsource them to forgien companies and to then let those companies keep the revenue. Keeps it off the balance sheet you see.

Maybe a couple of MPs have shares in companies that provide road pricing systems.

It will be sold as a benefit to road users when there is no beneift at all, well not to road users of course.

A bit like smart meters....
 
#4 ·
Seems eminently sensible to me. EVs use roads (at least they did the last time I checked) so why shouldn't we also contribute to their maintenance and/or repair, in proportion to our usage? HGVs presumably work the tarmac harder because of their weight, so they should pay more than (say) a Nissan Leaf.

PS. Fuel should still be taxed to compensate for the environmental damage it does.
PS. Happy Christmas to one and all. :D
 
#6 · (Edited)
On a coach that arrived at the German Frontier just four years ago the drivers had to buy a permit to use German roads. So the EU rules do not seem to be the a problem.
I would agree that the best way to collect 'payment 'for road use is, and has been for many years, to Tax road fuels as they leave the Refinery. Apparently the efficiency of this tax has been in the order of 97%+. However we have a future where it is proposed to reduce drastically the usage of such road fuels, so there would need to be a scheme to replace simple fuel tax.
As EV drivers we already benefit from using the roads 'free' of direct taxes, the EV lorry is coming into production along with the EV 'Bus and coach. So how do you ensure that those who use the roads pay for them , and those who damage them the most pay the most? Or should the roads be paid for out of general Taxes?
 
#8 ·
... we have a future where it is proposed to reduce drastically the usage of such road fuels, so there would need to be a scheme to replace simple fuel tax.
As EV drivers we already benefit from using the roads 'free' of direct taxes, the EV lorry is coming into production along with the EV 'Bus and coach. So how do you ensure that those who use the roads pay for them , and those who damage them the most pay the most? Or should the roads be paid for out of general Taxes?
(y)
 
#7 ·
I'm not that keen on road pricing, but something has to be done about congestion. I can see that it has scope for being tuned in ways that fuel tax can't. For example charges could be higher at times of the worst congestion, and charges could be made higher on routes where viable public transport alternatives exist but some people insist on using their car.

Steve
 
#11 · (Edited)
I agree that taxing fuel is a simple way of taxing usage with the additional benefit that it rewards efficiency. However there seem to be two arguments for road pricing: one is that it may have more of a deterrent effect than fuel pricing as the charge feels more directly connected to road usage. The other is that it provides a mechanism for pricing different roads at different rates in order to encourage avoidance of roads less suitable to traffic, for example residential streets or streets that tend to get unduly congested.

But good luck getting it past the bigots at the Daily Mail or the Sun, currently braying with triumph at the goverment’s keeling over before their infantile campaign to turn our passports blue.
 
#13 ·
The issue is that an HGV can come from the EU with enough diesel to do a week's work before crossing the border to go home for the weekend.
Just a week? :LOL:

The problem with ‘pay per mile’ for goods vehicles is the cost to move stuff will drastically increase for UK registered vehicles, which then means with you and I (the customers of the goods) will have to pay more for the goods or foreign hauliers who use cheaper diesel bought on the continent and very little road tax will take over the haulage industry (even more so), resulting in less income for the government.
 
#14 ·
That is the point of the 'consultation' for interested parties to submit their thoughts and ideas.

I do though fail to see how a change in the way vehicles are taxed will cause a rise in prices presumably it would be accompanied with changes in other associated taxes. If we leave the EU then we will set our own rules, whilst if we remain it is possible to use existing rules to ensure an even playing field for UK transport operators. The principle of payment by the Kilometre is well established across the world, where primative Toll roads have existed for many years.

Perhaps the attached will help.
Diesel prices in Europe 18-Dec-2017 | GlobalPetrolPrices.com
The differences in price per litre is much less than many believe for Diesel Fuel , whilst petrol is near parity. .

As others have pointed out , a move to a more sophisticated 'pay by the mile' system would permit the use of flexible schemes to improve the use of roads by dissuading their use at peak times, etc.
 
#20 ·
Germany tried that, eastern European truckers would have all available space under the truck taken up by (sometimes improvised) fuel tanks. But the "original" manufacturer also sells extra and bigger fuel tanks, both new with the truck and aftermarket.

So what's the difference between a proper quality tank I had fitted by a Mercedes truck dealership a month after purchase of the truck, and an "original" tank? Oh and Mercedes doesn't make tanks, they buy them from someone else...
 
#19 ·
its the only logical answer I can see, as more vehicles are going independent from traditional fuel, taxing the motorist by charging per mile used, or charging more for peak time makes sense.

Sure its not going to be popular, but no real practical solutions ever are popular.

Whatever solution can/will be done it will not be popular to everyone, our current design of ever increasing population combined with no investment in roads and pushing our individual living expectations higher, its all completely unsustainable.
 
#21 ·
There is actually a limit on the total capacity the truck can carry, IIRC it’s 1,500 ltrs, but the French have in the past fined companies for not using manufacturers tanks (its stamped on the top of the tank) most UK trucks will struggle to carry 1,500 ltrs though.
‘Belly tanks’ etc (fitted behind the cab or on the trailer) were banned several years ago.
 
#23 ·
So, that flags up another matter then - we [all drivers, passenger car or commercial] will have to go back to 'international drivers permits' and will have to undertake the concessions required by each individual country we want to drive in?

When will those countries tell us what those requirements are? We will need to know before 29th March 2018 (2 months or so, only) because insurance certificates are going to be issued regarding driving in the EU for which this will have an impact.

.... doesn't look like anyone's really thought this through .... (he says, hand-waiving towards the whole of the Brexit debacle)
 
#25 ·
Also what happens the other way around? If someone has an EU Country HGV licence is that going to be acceptable for them to drive in the UK on it?
Good question. That's an issue which should have been flagged up for government consideration by one of those impact assessments which they haven't done.

If they just do a blanket adoption of EU rules into UK legislation then presumably yes, it means all EU drivers will be able to drive on the UK roads as the UK legislation will say you must have EU certification. Of course a literal reading of that also means none of the UK drivers will be able to drive on UK roads as they won't have the required EU certification but I expect they'll sort that one out pretty quickly!


So, that flags up another matter then - we [all drivers, passenger car or commercial] will have to go back to 'international drivers permits' and will have to undertake the concessions required by each individual country we want to drive in?
In theory yes we'll need international driver's licenses, I guess you can apply at the same time as you are sorting out your visa. In practice I expect the EU will relax that pretty quickly as there's no real disadvantage to them permitting UK drivers licenses to be valid. The commercial drivers on the other hand would take work away from EU citizens and there is no incentive there for the EU to be generous.
 
#26 ·
In theory yes we'll need international driver's licenses, I guess you can apply at the same time as you are sorting out your visa.
In the EEA days, pre Lisbon, there was no need for a visa and the international permits that you could get from 'approved bodies' (presumably the same? - there are other countries beyond the EU!!) like AA/RAC etc, were technically required in other countries but were never asked for. Can't see why we would need visas. I suppose I should not be surprised that even that hasn't been sorted?

Why can we not simply unwind to 'pre-Lisbon' EEA status, where practical? I am sure people are just making this oh-so more complicated than it needs to be ... must be keeping government stooges/old-boy-network/grandees/political-cronies in clover for the duration with high paid jobs to waffle on about, and actually achieve, very little on the backs of tax-payer money (colour me cynical).
 
#30 ·
So trucks would pay 10p/mile during 7.30a.m.-7.30 p.m. and 2p/mile outside that, or a variable policy to that affect. Sounds like a good idea to make the road infrastructure sweat. Ring fencing all revenue to go back in to transport infrastructure seems like a good idea too.
 
#34 ·
Although this is in the context of road haulage, it looks as though anyone with a UK driving licence wishing to drive a car in Europe after March 2019 will require an International Driving Permit.

'Driving licence: According to Article 2 of Directive 2006/126/EC9 driving licences issued by Member States of the Union are mutually recognised. As of the withdrawal date, a driving licence issued by the United Kingdom is no longer recognised by the Member States on the basis of this legislation.'

https://ec.europa.eu/transport/site...-11-notice-to-stakeholders-road-transport.pdf
 
#36 ·
They're going to have to work that one out or will find that EU licences will be invalid in the UK also.

There was a time, before the EEC/EU, when drivers would cross the Channel and drive freely for a period of time after which a locally tested and issued licence would be required.

True Driving Instructor Story - A Slovakian friend, lets call her Evinka, asked me to teach her to drive for the UK, she had an EU valid Driving Licence. First lesson she couldn't even work out how to get the car to move. After about 15 minutes of helping her (thank heavens for dual controls) move off and driving around the quiet side streets I got her to pull over and stop (I had to correct her so as not to mount the pavement). In asking about her driving history and passing her test in Slovakia she said that her boyfriend of the time showed her the basics, then she did what all Slovakian girls did which was to wear very skimpy clothing to the driving test that was conducted by the local Police Sargent. A test pass was guaranteed! And there she was, sat next to me, with a pink EU Driving Licence in her purse!
 
#37 ·
They're going to have to work that one out or will find that EU licences will be invalid in the UK also.
The difference is that the government here want to pass a law that adopts all EU regulations into UK law and then apply changes from there. The EU will simply leave their regulations unchanged.

So if the regulation effectively says "you have to have a valid driving license issued in any EU country" then when we leave all UK licenses automatically become invalid. If the EU does nothing then we're stuffed, but also, if the UK government does nothing we're equally stuffed: our licenses become invalid in this country as well! So that means the UK government has to do something to patch up the law: that's the so-called Henry-the-eighth powers that they want in the leaving bill which mean they can do emergency patches to the law without parliament getting a say. If those powers survive into the final legislation then there's no problem: the government simply says "oh, that rule actually means "you have to have a valid driving license issued in any EU country or the UK".

So we're probably not at great risk of being unable to drive in the UK. And the EU drivers are probably not at great risk of being unable to drive here. But the EU isn't (as far as I know) planning to grant anyone there the power to change legislation without going through the usual democratic channels, so adding UK licenses back in for EU drivers will take a while, if indeed it happens at all: it might be that Polish lorry drivers ask their government to object for example, or French lorry drivers for that matter.
 
#44 ·
Most of the EU signed the 1949 Geneva convention on Road Traffic and the 1968 Vienna convention. All of them recognise the International Driving Permit.

These international treaties predate the EU.

Even if the UK pulls out of any EU only agreements, UK Tourists should be able to drive a car on a UK license but may need an IDP in some countries.



UNTC
 
#43 ·
Love the mixed metaphor -- I'm sure any dog would love a hat-sourced rabbit for breakfast...!

Is there no aspect of modern life to which Brexit will not add new dimensions of fascinating complexity..?
 
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