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Doesn't it seem strange to you (well, there may be a few exceptions) that if there is to be a curtailment in the system that you should want to curtail sources such as wind that have no additional fuel costs. There are arguments over grid inertia and voltage stability (for which there are also other solutions) to favour spinning reserve, but burning additional FFs is something we wish to avoid. Diversity, in its myriad forms means that drops in wind or cloud cover in one place do not matter as much as the fear mongers would wish.

Earlier in the week I saw some scare stories in the press about lack of demand being a problem this bank holiday Friday (tomorrow, just!) requiring large curtailment of RE, as if RE were the problem itself. I see from the proposed prices on my Agile tariff that there will be no such problem. One really does have to wonder sometimes about certain sections of the press..
 

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Doesn't it seem strange to you (well, there may be a few exceptions) that if there is to be a curtailment in the system that you should want to curtail sources such as wind that have no additional fuel costs. There are arguments over grid inertia and voltage stability (for which there are also other solutions) to favour spinning reserve, but burning additional FFs is something we wish to avoid. Diversity, in its myriad forms means that drops in wind or cloud cover in one place do not matter as much as the fear mongers would wish.

Earlier in the week I saw some scare stories in the press about lack of demand being a problem this bank holiday Friday (tomorrow, just!) requiring large curtailment of RE, as if RE were the problem itself. I see from the proposed prices on my Agile tariff that there will be no such problem. One really does have to wonder sometimes about certain sections of the press..
From the octopus forum..
"
Sadly (or happily, depending which shoes you’re wearing), National Grid have reached a deal to halve Sizewell’s output which was signed overnight and the emergency powers to cut off surplus wind/solar were confirmed this evening.
So no massive plunge prices over the weekend then."
 

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I suspect its a bit more complicated than it first seems. The Nat Grid responsibility is for 100% reliability at 240V /50H.

It could be that Sizewell due to its size and locality presents a serious risk to the transmission whereby if it failed we would have widespread blackouts. The Nat Grid cannot have anything connected which potentially carries that risk so remove it. Nothing to do with Nuclear per se they have the power to cut off any danger to the grid.
 

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I was suggesting the negative Agile prices this weekend may not happen, as they've paid Sizewell to turn half off and can now pay wind generators to switch off too.

Hopefully I'm wrong :)
Basically that's right. All this generation is on long term contracts. Physical switch off isn't a big problem - it's the contractual issues that arise. (This crisis has probably found a hole in those contracts which will likely get closed at next renewal.)
 

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Discussion Starter #206
Unfortunately there seems no carbon criteria used for National Grid's decision-making. It's also not clear whether this will become a permanent policy thereby significantly affecting viability of new build renewables, at exactly the moment it has become subsidy-free. Conspiracy theorists please line up here...
 

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Sadly (or happily, depending which shoes you’re wearing), National Grid have reached a deal to halve Sizewell’s output which was signed overnight and the emergency powers to cut off surplus wind/solar were confirmed this evening.
Looking at Electricity Data Summary | BMRS the Nuclear output has today (Friday) remained constant around 5,500 MW. Let us see what happens tomorrow when the available wind power picks up.
 

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Unfortunately there seems no carbon criteria used for National Grid's decision-making. It's also not clear whether this will become a permanent policy thereby significantly affecting viability of new build renewables, at exactly the moment it has become subsidy-free. Conspiracy theorists please line up here...
They have stated that the national grid are aiming to be Carbon neutral by 2025 and will be using the lessons learnt now to prepare for that. They are working on coping with the fluctuations of solar and wind without having to shut down the clean parts of the grid.
 

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They have stated that the national grid are aiming to be Carbon neutral by 2025 and will be using the lessons learnt now to prepare for that. They are working on coping with the fluctuations of solar and wind without having to shut down the clean parts of the grid.
Greenwash.
Wind and Solar PV have significant embedded CO2. UK grid only functions because if flexible gas CCGT.
Are there sanctioned sequestration projects to take CO2 out of the atmosphere??
 

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Wind and Solar PV have significant embedded CO2. UK grid only functions because if flexible gas CCGT.
That, quite frankly, is bollocks. On that basis flexible gas also has "embedded CO2". The point being that any capital investment has embedded CO2, and it is then a question of how much CO2 is then produced in operation and the return on that investment, including the carbon payback period for the investment.
 

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They have stated that the national grid are aiming to be Carbon neutral by 2025 and will be using the lessons learnt now to prepare for that. They are working on coping with the fluctuations of solar and wind without having to shut down the clean parts of the grid.
Just to be pedantic they have the aim of being able to run carbon neutral if necassary. They do not make that choice, gov and market forces do that.
 

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That, quite frankly, is bollocks. On that basis flexible gas also has "embedded CO2". The point being that any capital investment has embedded CO2, and it is then a question of how much CO2 is then produced in operation and the return on that investment, including the carbon payback period for the investment.
If one cares to look at the National Grid's own publications, they state a target of becoming carbon neutral by 2050. That's an all together a different proposition to 2025 so excuse the [email protected]£KS.
 

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Discussion Starter #215 (Edited)
That, quite frankly, is bollocks. On that basis flexible gas also has "embedded CO2". The point being that any capital investment has embedded CO2, and it is then a question of how much CO2 is then produced in operation and the return on that investment, including the carbon payback period for the investment.
Quite. No doubt the same people who claim EVs have the same wheel to well emissions as ICE vehicles whilst conveniently forgetting extracting, refining and transport of fuels and air quality or those who claim nuclear is carbon free.
 

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Greenwash.
Wind and Solar PV have significant embedded CO2. UK grid only functions because if flexible gas CCGT.
Are there sanctioned sequestration projects to take CO2 out of the atmosphere??
 

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“Here, we integrate prospective life-cycle assessment with global integrated energy–economy–land-use–climate modelling to explore life-cycle emissions of future low-carbon power supply systems and implications for technology choice. Future per-unit life-cycle emissions differ substantially across technologies. For a climate protection scenario, we project life-cycle emissions from fossil fuel carbon capture and sequestration plants of 78–110 gCO2eq kWh−1, compared with 3.5–12 gCO2eq kWh−1 for nuclear, wind and solar power for 2050.”

Even if we capture the CO2 emissions from gas generation, the embedded emissions in building the plant and extraction and supply of fuel are going to be 10-20 times the embedded emissions of building and installating wind solar or nuclear.

Or to put it another way - the succinct one word summary from @SueH seems to be entirely correct.
 

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I'm re-joining late, so apologies if I've missed owt, but isn't power storage the answer to flexibility ?
Demand response is a cheaper answer.
When we electrify heating, we will need seasonal storage too which is a challenge for both batteries and demand response. In Denmark they are injecting heat to aquifers which can be extracted in the winter for district heating.
 

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Greenwash.
Wind and Solar PV have significant embedded CO2. UK grid only functions because if flexible gas CCGT.
Are there sanctioned sequestration projects to take CO2 out of the atmosphere??
Hmmm actually while I disagree with your greenwash comment much of what you say is accurate now I read more carefully...

National grid have set an “ambition” to be able to run the grid with zero carbon sometimes when there’s sufficient renewables...
Our ambition is that, by 2025, we will have transformed the operation of the electricty system such that we can operate it safely and securely at zero carbon whenever there is sufficient renewable generation on-line and available to meet the total national load.

As for renewables not being zero carbon. Well yes and no.

If we look at lifecycle emissions then of course it takes energy to build install operate and decommission any power generator. As mentioned above those emissions are pretty insignificant in the grand scheme of things, and the lifecycle emissions for fossil are an order of magnitude worse even before we set fire to the dinosaur juice... and as far as I know no one is adding that to the CO2/KWH for gas and coal.
As we only seem to count CO2 generation in use for fossil generation then for consistency of measurement we have to call and nuclear renewables zero carbon.
The same is true for EVs of course. By all official definitions an EV is a zero emissions vehicle.
 
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