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For all those solar (and EV) sceptics out there

14K views 237 replies 30 participants last post by  wannabe 
#1 ·
Thought I would give you a ray of sunshine today...







Of course, we are living in unusual times and demand of energy is well down. But nevertheless, who could have predicted this scenario when we first started installing solar panels under the Feed in Tariff and later under the Renewable Obligation. To think, many said solar wouldn't work in the UK and it was just a waste of money. Just think what we could do with a more supportive government, hybrid solar/wind and increasing use of storage! Also bodes well for decarbonising EV charging.
 
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#6 ·
What do you mean by "sceptics"? If I was building a house from scratch I'd include solar panels but retrofitting just doesn't make sense for a lot of people. Last time I did the calculations, it worked out that even if I filled my whole roof I'd just about break even over the expected lifetime of the panels, so there wasn't exactly much incentive there. With an EV it may well pay off though.
 
#8 ·
What's funnier is that in the last 25 years we have built huge amounts of wind and solar in the UK from a standing start but we still haven't managed to build a single new nuclear power station. In the meantime, the price of renewable energy has fallen to a third of the price of nuclear.

What is our government's answer to this new economic reality? It has decided to try and build a new nuclear power station anyway. Not only that, but we are inviting the Chinese government to build it for us. And despite how much money has gone into nuclear R&D, there is still no solution to nuclear waste. Well, maybe not so funny after all!
 
#9 ·
Solar still doesn't make sense to retrofit economically.

I think it's a real stretch to claim the current circumstances (low demand, unseasonal weather) as a good example of solar. It's a corner case at best.

If anything, it's showing how inflexible it is and causing headaches for the UK grid balancing (potentially, in extreme circumstances seeing baseload generators switched off).

I certainly want solar to be part of the mix, but it's really not justified for domestic use at this time.
 
#12 ·
There is no such thing as BASELOAD in the UK. Look there are old and inflexible nuclear plants that churn out between 3 and 6.5 GW when they aren't busy cracking irlor refuelling. Everything else is up and down depending on which way the wind is blowing...AND we have become very dependent on electricity imports from France, Belgium etc and currently back in winter by some coal stations. That's so we can drive our electric cars in winter when the sun don't shine. Actually it's not a bad system but it's certainly far from being fossil free.
 
#10 ·
But solar on roofs is very well suited to both the current circumstances and post lock down. Producing power at point of use, reducing stresses on network, putting off required network investment etc.

The Feed in Tariff was hugely successful resulting in around a million solar roofs but it made people over-fixated on return on investment. How many homeowners putting in a new bathroom suite or kitchen spend hours working out a return on investment?
 
#15 ·
Yeah there is no BASELOAD. All the large industrial and commercial loads have their own behind the meter generation or emergency generation or load limitation schemes so they don't get crucified by the triads

The nuclear stuff doesn't really fit anymore, no one will really miss it, it's been slowly falling away, cracking itself to bits.

But we don't need some really decent scale storage, can't keep ducking this one
 
#19 ·
We do indeed need more storage and the market is certainly more dynamic! I've got 4kWp solar panels on my ex-council terrace and am also on Agile. I was exporting today until 19.21 as I wasn't cooking, but earlier in the day I was being paid up to 4p a kWh for importing between 13.00 and 16.00, which was a bit difficult as my solar production was so healthy. I tried by having dishwasher, oven, washing machine and electric chainsaw going, but it was only when I'd finished my chores that the electric shower managed to make a decent impact..

Obviously circumstances are a bit different at the moment but negative prices between 09.00 and 16.00 tomorrow shows the impact a reduction in demand and an increase in supply can have. A sector of the population is showing that demand management can have an impact, just as working at home is having an impact on transport pressures. Everybody benefits if people avoid peak usage not just those who can adjust their usage, everybody benefits if fewer people are on the road, not just those who are saving fuel by not driving at all.

When I get an EV (whenever..) I'll be able to take another of those micro-decisions on charging and using it which will be part of the adaptation to new circumstances and the ever increasing installed load of renewables.
 
#26 ·
I do agree to an extent, but imagine how much worse it would be if we had 10-20% more solar generation on the grid, even on domestic properties?

And then consider how a good proportion of owners are being guaranteed nearly 50p for half their kWh generated, even when grid prices are negative? We don't know how long the industrial impacts will continue.
 
#28 ·
Solar installed at consumption source along with battery storage solution is in effect a virtual power plant and more likely to become the norm in the coming years...
 
#42 ·
Not sure this will do anything to persuade my neighbour about anything... he says climate change is fake and doesn't believe in switching to electricity. He prefers oil and says that there is enough for centuries yet so we shouldn't worry about it!

You can imagine our discussions... just installed 9kWp or solar & an EV on order! He thinks I am totally crazy! Mind you... he has 2 Land Rovers and a Jaguar on his drive so he is putting his money where his mouth is :eek:
 
#43 ·
Not sure this will do anything to persuade my neighbour about anything... he says climate change is fake and doesn't believe in switching to electricity. He prefers oil and says that there is enough for centuries yet so we shouldn't worry about it!

You can imagine our discussions... just installed 9kWp or solar & an EV on order! He thinks I am totally crazy! Mind you... he has 2 Land Rovers and a Jaguar on his drive so he is putting his money where his mouth is :eek:
Simple point to make to him, does he like being dependent on oil and gas from Russia and the middle East? Going EV/PV doesn't have to be climate driven.
 
#46 ·
It's vaguely amusing to listen to criticisms of solar power being unaffordably middle class when I've never paid more than £4000/€4000 for a car yet have still managed to find £6000 from my rainy day savings to pay for panels and am commenting on a site where the purchase of far more expensive cars is discussed. In my experience many of the middle class clutch their pearls in horror at the appearance of solar panels on a roof, though they never seem to notice my neat installation to the rear of the house.

As I'm retired the absence of worry relating to fuel bills is rather a good position to be in. As a source the advantage of solar power is its distributed nature, so integrating it into the network is by and large a lot easier than big remote power stations or wind farms, particularly if they are offshore.

Those of you who are going on about panels on agricultural land would do well to look into the matter in more detail; there is plenty of research that shows yields are not impacted significantly, and may even increase in some circumstances.

It also seems strange to me that there are complaints about installing load just because we have temporal surpluses. We'll need far more in future to avoid burning stuff or massive subsidies for nuclear. The need for storage is self-evident, but that's not a reason not to install more generation.
 
#51 ·
It's disappointing when people state opinion as fact.

It's vaguely amusing to listen to criticisms of solar power being unaffordably middle class when I've never paid more than £4000/€4000 for a car yet have still managed to find £6000 from my rainy day savings to pay for panels and am commenting on a site where the purchase of far more expensive cars is discussed.
If you have £6,000 in cash savings, then you're probably not working class by most economic standards (that's about 4 months take home for an average earner). And the fact you've chosen not to spend much on a car doesn't have any bearing on the economic definition.

As I'm retired the absence of worry relating to fuel bills is rather a good position to be in.
If that's what you think, then you've been thoroughly miss-sold and should seek compensation. Your solar panels will have little bearing on your bills for at least 4 months of the year.

As a source the advantage of solar power is its distributed nature, so integrating it into the network is by and large a lot easier than big remote power stations or wind farms, particularly if they are offshore.
That distribution also means the grid has no control of their output.
 
#88 ·
I love the way a good news thread about solar has disintegrated into a row about everything. Don't you just love online fora!

Anyway, going back to the original point, it really doesn't matter what sceptics think (including those on here), solar is by far the fastest growing source of power globally. Combined with storage and wind and demand management it will continue to displace more expensive sources of power.

Just because the grid was designed for large, centralised generation many years ago, that doesn't mean that it will have to be like that forever. It will have to adapt to the new reality like much of our outdated infrastructure.
 
#89 ·
Just because the grid was designed for large, centralised generation many years ago, that doesn't mean that it will have to be like that forever. It will have to adapt to the new reality like much of our outdated infrastructure.
And it is adapting, by building lots of gas (and a bit of biomass and waste incineration) generation to meet the gaps in solar generation!
 
#93 ·
Care to reference all these gas plants that are being built?
Gladly.



STOR plants, clusters of open cycle power stations designed to meet peak demand from the Grid.

You've probably seen one, but didn't realise it was even there. They're not fussy about building within a stones throw of residential areas (zebra.settle.trucks) or any clean credentials.

I suppose you thought I was thinking of CCGT powerstations? You know, the ones generating that thing that doesn't exist, baseload.
 
#92 ·
Most of the new build gas plants recently have not been conventional large scale CCGT, there's been a lot more growth at the small scale end - industrial and commercial sites installing CHPs, district heating scheme in London and cities most of which tend to use gas reciprocating engines. There's also been companies developing gas peaking plants, typically using banks of gas reciprocating engines to provide balancing services for the grid.

While I don't doubt that solar will provide an increasing share of our total energy needs, from the perspective of firm generating capacity to keep the lights on cold winter evenings, when there's no sun and little wind, that job will fall to conventional plant and going forward that will mostly be gas in some form. Certainty until we see very significant drops in the cost of storage but even then, it will be needed because solar output in winter is far lower.
 
#107 ·
And when all these alternative (modular anyone?) nuclear reactors come on stream the world will have moved on by another 25 years. By then we definitely won't need large, centralised power sources and the grid is unlikely to be national, if it exists at all.

Unfortunately there are too many nuclear 'advisors' still in government, still managing to get government to spunk billions at an energy source that was once predicted to be 'too cheap to meter' but is now too expensive to build without huge subsidies. Hinkley will be it's outrageously costly epitaph - it's my children I feel sorry for having to shoulder the burden.
 
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