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Looks ominous.

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Discussion Starter #1
Conquest:

Pestilence:

Famine:

Death:
 

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Conquest:

Pestilence:

Famine:

Death:
Quite so, but don't confuse cause and effect.

The four horsemen are the effect, not the cause.

What is the cause?
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
What is the cause?
Whether directly or indirectly, by action or inaction, the cause is invariably Human.

Were all doomed!!
The faith in you is strong! ;)

I am not suggesting Christians are directly responsible for the Apocalypse, or that climate change is a self-fulfilling prophesy, but the single largest group of Humans are Christian (population 29.81%, or 2.4 billion). The thrust of this is that Christians carry significant responsibility.

According to at least one Guardian article, which surveyed Christians in southern USA, those of faith are prone to “lumping environmentalists in with hippies and liberals and all the other people who were probably going to hell”.

The article's cited professor explains, “there is a longstanding antipathy toward environmental sentiments in Christian, and especially evangelical circles, because they have, for centuries, been imagined as pernicious and dangerous, and possibly bordering on paganism.

What would Jesus' general guidance be? My humble guess:
  • "God created the heavens and the earth ... " (Genesis 1:1)
  • "... the land is mine and you are but aliens and my tenants ..." (Leviticus 25:23)
  • "... whoever is righteous has regard for the life ..." (Proverbs 12:10)
  • "... you shall not pollute the land in which you live ..." (Numbers 35:33)
  • "... you shall not destroy its trees ... you may eat from them, but you shall not cut them down" (Deuteronomy 20:19)
  • "... when you come into the land that I give you, the land shall keep a Sabbath ... " (Leviticus 25:1)
  • "... let it rest and lie fallow" (Exodus 23:10)
How might Jesus guide challengers to such a line? My humble guess:
  • "Earth lies defiled under its inhabitants; for they have transgressed the laws, violated the statutes, broken the everlasting covenant ..." (Isaiah 24:4)
  • "... the wages of sin is death ..." (Romans 6:23)
  • "... and after that comes judgment ..." (Hebrews 9:27)
  • "... as for the cowardly, the faithless .. and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death ..." (Revelation 21:8)
  • "... whoever conceals his transgressions will not prosper, but he who confesses and forsakes them will obtain mercy ..." (Proverbs 28:13)
  • "... repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out." (Acts 3:19)
Go forth and convert any Christian you meet to being an environmentally sympathetic Human, much as Jesus may have advocated.

 

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Discussion Starter #5

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
Might be a good line to try on the JWs when they visit :unsure:
It appears they have washed their hands of this issue. I just now google'd the JW site and it appears to me their view is that individuals must decide their own responsible environmental impact. My understanding is that Armageddon/Apocalypse cannot come soon enough for JWs so their measure of responsible might be the reverse of everyone else's. I am glad you volunteered to test that - do let us know how you get on ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #9

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My understanding is that Armageddon/Apocalypse cannot come soon enough...
Well, they mean different things, an 'apocalypse' is from the Greek meaning a revelation of some future event, whereas 'Armageddon' is a place name, the location of the final battle at the end of days.

I think we already have the revelation of what's coming .... and we know where Armageddon is ...
 

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Whether directly or indirectly, by action or inaction, the cause is invariably Human.
Something specifically human ... over populating the planet.

Malthus's horsemen were specifically and exclusively about the shape that the population growth curve of humans would take. We don't really have an effect on natural disasters, if we 'made' a natural disaster then it's not really ..errr ... natural?

If we ramp back on population growth, we send the horsemen to pasture.

For academic study;-
 

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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
I knew nothing of the four Horseman coach uncanny coincidence. The driver's lack of protection is worrying; were the passengers wrapped in air-tight suits?

donald said:
Malthus's horsemen were specifically and exclusively about the shape that the population growth curve of humans would take.
Death is entirely compatible with procreating. To cease procreating would be the end of the human species, and the end of all hopes invested in humanity.

I think we already have the revelation of what's coming .... and we know where Armageddon is ...
You would not be the first to get that wrong. Are you suggesting the location is Moscow, Wuhan, Somalia, Antarctic, or other?
 

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The driver's lack of protection is worrying; were the passengers wrapped in air-tight suits?
From what I've read this facemask thing is a bit of a 'panic' thing and may be more harmful than helpful. Experts are divided, as they say and if wearing a mask makes you think you are all hunky-dory thank you, you may not take the precautions you really need to take.

Apparently airborne transmission is not a major risk unless an infected person coughs or sneezes very close to you, and these masks aren't generally good enough to filter that out anyway.
It seems that surface contact is the usual transmission mode, so hand-washing, especially before touching your nose, mouth or eyes is vital.
So the masks don't really stop much transmission, but they may deter people from thoughtlessly touching their face. But because they are a bit irritating people may also stick a finger inside to 'scratch the itch' ... which is exactly what you don't want to be doing. So ... a bit meh.
 

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You would not be the first to get that wrong. Are you suggesting the location is Moscow, Wuhan, Somalia, Antarctic, or other?
Armageddon is Mount Megiddo ('Har' = 'mountain' in Hebew, hence 'Har-Maggedion'), it's about 10km south west of Nazareth, about 100km north of Tel Aviv. (It's not much of a 'mount', don't get disappointed...)


(FWIW 'Tel' means a man-made mount, rather than a natural one ...)
 

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Death is entirely compatible with procreating. To cease procreating would be the end of the human species, and the end of all hopes invested in humanity.
The issue is the relative rate of death versus birth, not their compatibility or relationship.
 

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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
Armageddon is Mount Megiddo
Ah, but could Megiddo have been a namesake of an era; used colloquially as a phrase with a meaning similar to contemporary Fubar?

My view is that Revelations read literally could pinpoint specific geo-coordinates, or could read figuratively to mean a place experiencing successive troubles.
 

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From what I've read this facemask thing is a bit of a 'panic' thing and may be more harmful than helpful. Experts are divided, as they say and if wearing a mask makes you think you are all hunky-dory thank you, you may not take the precautions you really need to take.

Apparently airborne transmission is not a major risk unless an infected person coughs or sneezes very close to you, and these masks aren't generally good enough to filter that out anyway.
It seems that surface contact is the usual transmission mode, so hand-washing, especially before touching your nose, mouth or eyes is vital.
So the masks don't really stop much transmission, but they may deter people from thoughtlessly touching their face. But because they are a bit irritating people may also stick a finger inside to 'scratch the itch' ... which is exactly what you don't want to be doing. So ... a bit meh.
Personally, I think a mask, of any sort is better than no mask. Lots of profiteering going on already, go on ebay and search for FFP3 masks, crazy prices and loads putting corona into the description. My local stores are sold out of FFP3 masks. Luckily we have a good stock as we need them for work and the supply should last until things get back to normal.

There are a few things that concern me over this virus. The long incubation period. That the virus can last for a long time on hard surfaces. And finally, even if you survive the virus there are lasting effects of lung and heart damage.
 

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Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
So the masks don't really stop much transmission, but they may deter people from thoughtlessly touching their face. But because they are a bit irritating people may also stick a finger inside to 'scratch the itch' ... which is exactly what you don't want to be doing.
Gloves are more sensible. Gloves stop hands picking up germs from hard surfaces, and gloves stop fingers rubbing eyes or being licked.

This is the number the world was fearful of:

Coronavirus is also more widespread than SARS:
 

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Gloves are more sensible. Gloves stop hands picking up germs from hard surfaces, and gloves stop fingers rubbing eyes or being licked.
Unfortunately not. The gloves will pick the virus up from surfaces just like your fingers and transfer them the same way. People who wear gloves are likely to wash their hands (or gloves) less often thus increasing the risk of transferring the virus, not reducing it. As with masks, or armour, or seat belts, it can engender increased confidence and lack of caution.
The whole thing is counterintuitive because people.
WHO are (or were a few days ago) actually against mass quarantine because it leads to convert movement of people. Better that they travel in controlled and monitored ways. (The finding that people can be infectious before showing any symptoms may have changed that though. I've not checked since then.)
 
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