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Militant EV driver!
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Discussion Starter #21
A point I have made in a posting some time ago. A global grid may not be workable though due to cable losses.
I seem to remember that cable losses are minimised if the power is transmitted at a higher frequency, but that then presents it's own problems.
There must be a knowledgeable electrical engineer on here to advise.
Actually long distance is done using high voltage DC. There are lines from coast to coast in the US and across most of Russia using this. High frequency is the opposite - the higher the frequency, the higher the losses in cable (high frequency AC is otherwise known as RF, radio frequency).
 

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Does anybody believe what journalists say anymore? They constantly are short on facts, even with them having internet we should have the best researched news of all time. Thats the strangest thing because they can be proved wrong with a quick google by anyone. Oh well let them get on with it, they will become extinct someday. I cannot remember the last time I bought a newspaper or magazine.
A huge problem is that many people do indeed believe what a journalist writes. They continue to buy the paper that gives them a confirmation bias fix daily - which in itself forces that paper to continue to churn out the 'facts' that they know will do that. Fortunately more and more people have broken free from this vicious circle, probably by having access to a much wider selection of opinions and observations via the internet, and are able to reveal that the mainstream papers are wrong so often.
 

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Actually long distance is done using high voltage DC. There are lines from coast to coast in the US and across most of Russia using this. High frequency is the opposite - the higher the frequency, the higher the losses in cable (high frequency AC is otherwise known as RF, radio frequency).
Such are the vagaries of memory, thanks for the clarification.
 

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I don't have an issue with nuclear per se; I do have an issue with it's cost vs other generation.

As for news reporting; these days it seems people just read the headline without testing the truth of the substance of the reporting. We are inundated with information and it's very difficult to pull the actual facts from all the dross. Adam Curtis has done some interesting documentaries over the past few years on all this fake news / propaganda as a way to control / confuse the masses:


It appears that many nations are using similar tactics with US the latest, where it is deemed appropriate to shout down those who disagree with an argument on the basis they believe something that is completely untrue o_O
 

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A huge problem is that many people do indeed believe what a journalist writes. They continue to buy the paper that gives them a confirmation bias fix daily - which in itself forces that paper to continue to churn out the 'facts' that they know will do that. Fortunately more and more people have broken free from this vicious circle, probably by having access to a much wider selection of opinions and observations via the internet, and are able to reveal that the mainstream papers are wrong so often.
Well, I agree with you but at the same time disagree. Newspaper sales falling suggests that there is a dis-satisfaction with the press, but the internet seems to be the origin of much of the 'fake' news.
What's needed is 'critical thinking' to discern the responsible reports from the junk. Unfortunately critical thinking, like common sense, is not that common.
 

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I haven't read any of the articles about this 20 new powerstation scaremongering malarkey, but....I bet the article doesn't mention the fact that if we did have 30+ million electric cars that would be a massive amount of electric saved on the refining, storing, pumping and transporting of the petrol/oil.
 

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Well, I agree with you but at the same time disagree. Newspaper sales falling suggests that there is a dis-satisfaction with the press, but the internet seems to be the origin of much of the 'fake' news.
What's needed is 'critical thinking' to discern the responsible reports from the junk. Unfortunately critical thinking, like common sense, is not that common.
No need to disagree because I just didn't expand enough on my early musings. I agree with your own observation. I did make the assumption that people who expose themselves to a far wider selection of inputs will also be in a position to filter out the dross. Being in a position to be able to begin that evaluation is key here. Refusing to read/watch the alternatives is the problem although, as you say, there will be some who do take the trouble to fact check but will still not engage the brain when reaching a conclusion.
 

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20 Hinkley Points would generate

20 x 3.2GW x 24h/day = 1536 GWh/day

Assuming 3 miles/kWh (or 3,000,000 miles per GWh) that would be enough to drive 31,000,000 cars:

1536 GWh/day x 3,000,000 (miles/GWh) / 31,000,000 = 149 miles/day or 54,000 miles per year.

If the average annual milage is only 7,900 miles then we only need another:

20 Hinkleys / 54,000 x 7,900 = 3 Hinkleys assuming we can spread demand throughout the day.

That's ignoring the fact we already have plenty of spare generation capacity at night when most people need to charge their cars.
 

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Discussion Starter #29 (Edited)
Went to the editor of the Times:

Sir,

Your 11th February article "Electric cars mean UK could need 20 new nuclear plants" by Graham Paton shows both a lack of understanding of charging patterns of electric vehicle drivers and a failing of basic arithmetic.

Ninety per cent of all electric vehicle charging is done at home (source: OLEV) and of this the vast majority is done at night. Like many EV drivers, I programme mine to charge during the Economy 7 period to take advantage of cheap electricity rates of 8p per unit (kilowatt-hour). That charge is enough to cover my typical daily needs. Nationally, 73% of all vehicles are garaged or parked on private property overnight and even in urban areas the majority of cars are parked on private property (source: RAC Foundation), so there is scope for much of the fleet to be charged at off peak times today, even in cities.

Your article states that "At the maximum level of uptake in the city green cars would demand between seven and eight gigawatt-hours per year" and "Experts said this was equivalent to the output of more than two nuclear power stations similar to that being built at Hinkley Point in Somerset". Hinkley C will have an output of 3.2 gigawatts, meaning that in one hour, two such power stations would produce 6.4 gigawatt-hours. Clearly 8 gigawatt-hours in a year is not going to trouble such a facility, but in fact your total is very wide of the mark.

An electric vehicle like mine typically drives 4 miles with one kilowatt-hour. Therefore, taking average annual mileage of 7,900 miles per year (source: RAC Foundation), annual usage is just under 2,000 kWh or 2 megawatt-hours per car. Thus the 8 gigawatt-hours quoted in your article equates to only 4,000 cars' worth of electricity in a year. This is clearly incorrect, as London already has more electric vehicles on the road than that. Furthermore, it is 0.8% of the just over 1 Terawatt-hour (1,000 Gigawatt-hours) Transport for London states London Underground uses in one year (source: TfL).

More importantly, the article also completely misses the point that demand on the National Grid is not constant, but during the winter period varies from approximately 30 gigawatts at night to 50 gigawatts in the daytime peak (source: National Grid Demand). It is even less during the summer. Average annual mileage is under 22 miles per day, equating to a demand of under 6 kilowatt-hours per car, per day. If everyone recharged 90% of their needs during the seven hour Economy 7 period, each car would require under 1 kilowatt (or about 4 amps, less than a single electric heater). So today, during the Economy 7 period, 20 million cars can recharge before electricity demand reaches the same as the daytime peak. If all 31 million cars in the UK were electric, peak overnight demand (including existing demand) would be approximately 62 gigawatts - which was the peak demand in 2007 before LED lights and A+ appliances were commonplace. The other 10% of "away from home" daytime charging, which the government's proposed new initiative is aiming to meet by rolling out new fast chargers, will also comfortably remain within this historical threshold.

As the National Grid currently has a total generating capacity of 75 gigawatts and a further 3 gigawatts of foreign interconnectors (source: National Grid Winter Outlook Report 2016/17), it is therefore apparent that no new capacity is needed for a mass uptake of battery electric vehicles (note this is not true of electrolysed hydrogen, also mentioned in your article, which requires over three times as much electricity per mile to manufacture). In fact, a mass uptake of electric vehicles benefits the grid by allowing assets that would be idled overnight to continue to operate at full capacity. An electric vehicle fleet is complementary to existing National Grid domestic and industrial demand, not a burden to it.

What is needed is demand management - the so-called "Smart Grid" - to ensure that 31 million drivers do not arrive home and immediately recharge during the evening peak. To an extent this is done today through tariffs like Economy 7, but overnight charging should be the default option rather than merely encouraged (of course, like with a heater, this would not preclude an immediate boost if essential). As many domestic charging stations already include remote management via cellular links, by comparison this is relatively easy to implement and certainly not comparable to the expense and complication of an unnecessary build of 20 new nuclear power stations.


Yours faithfully,

David Peilow


OLEV: Drive an EV and you may never have to visit a petrol station again - Electric cars, low emission motoring - Go Ultra Low

RAC Foundation: Mobility

TfL: http://content.tfl.gov.uk/london-underground-carbon-footprint-2008.pdf

National Grid Demand: G. B. National Grid status

National Grid Winter Outlook Report: http://www2.nationalgrid.com/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=8589937050
 

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Discussion Starter #30
If the average annual milage is only 7,900 miles then we only need another:

20 Hinkleys / 54,000 x 7,900 = 3 Hinkleys assuming we can spread demand throughout the day.

That's ignoring the fact we already have plenty of spare generation capacity at night when most people need to charge their cars.
We don't - overnight capacity is enough to handle it already.
 

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Tweeted The Times to complain.

What we need is a really eye catching full page advert in major newspapers with a simple ICE vs EV comparison, and downplay the environmental benefits because they are of secondary importance to most people.

Anyone up for helping fund one? No idea how much a full page ad costs....anyone?
 

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Nobody worth targeting reads print media, save your cash (and it will be a lot of cash)
Aside from the Sun and Daily Fail readers, I agree with you. There needs to be some way of educating people about the truth of the matter.
 

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As we're in the middle of winter there should be an advert on tv of somebody turning on the preheat then walking out to a clear windscreen whilst all the neigbours are out scraping theirs. No manufacturer would do it though as it would just make their other models look bad.
 

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As we're in the middle of winter there should be an advert on tv of somebody turning on the preheat then walking out to a clear windscreen whilst all the neigbours are out scraping theirs. No manufacturer would do it though as it would just make their other models look bad.
Danger as most ICE drivers just run their engines to do the same...
 

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  • "You have enough electricity to power all the cars in the country if you stop refining gasoline," says Musk. "You take an average of 5 kilowatt hours to refine [one gallon of] gasoline, something like the Model S can go 20 miles on 5 kilowatt hours."
Anyone know if this fact is accurate for us in the UK?
 

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  • "You have enough electricity to power all the cars in the country if you stop refining gasoline," says Musk. "You take an average of 5 kilowatt hours to refine [one gallon of] gasoline, something like the Model S can go 20 miles on 5 kilowatt hours."
Anyone know if this fact is accurate for us in the UK?
It would be enough electricity to power about half the cars in the UK if we stopped refining fossil fuel for cars. The refinery efficiency is of about the same order as the US but the actual figures are commercial secrets (something like on various estimates 0.7 to 1 KWh per litre) but UK cars tend to be nearer 40 mpg average than the 20 mpg average for the USA.
 
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