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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
The 26.8kWh Dacia Spring is launching in Italy for 9460 EUR after incentives and trade-in of any pre-2010 car registered to the buyer.

While I can't vouch for the car as there is no history, this isn't like buying a 40000 EUR car and having it delivered with faults and issues.

In a similar thread, I pointed out that the Leaf is retailing from 20.800 EUR in Italy, after incentives.


Renault-Nissan effectively democratized the electric car in Italy.
With the current government incentives, these cars are priced competitively against ICE's.
 

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2quidforhalfanhour
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All that tells you is that the UK government don't give a rats ass about the environment.
I'd buy one of those in a heartbeat at that price, and I wouldn't care if it just had a steering wheel and nothing else.
 

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Their incentives are almost as much as the final price of that Dacia.. wow
 

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2quidforhalfanhour
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Of course they aren't.
But if the Italians and other European countries can offer that level of subsidy, why don't/can't/won't we?
 

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Zoe Devotee
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Of course they aren't.
But if the Italians and other European countries can offer that level of subsidy, why don't/can't/won't we?
We bought a shit ton of vaccines at retail. EU wrangled discounts for best endeavours delivery? left them with plenty of money, but also lots of folk too scared to go out and spend their money? Nah ok, Just the Torries lining their pockets again.
 
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The 26.8kWh Dacia Spring is launching in Italy for 9460 EUR after incentives and trade-in of any pre-2010 car registered to the buyer.
Cavolo! If I'd still been living there I'd have gone for that, although I haven't checked the range yet!
 

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2quidforhalfanhour
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Luxembourg- 5000 euros.
Spain, 5500 with scrappage.
Sweden-6000.
France-7000.
Norway, Netherlands- zero VAT.
All much more generous than the UK, no?
Ours has just been cut, again.
One might argue this has the effect of lining the pockets of the manufacturers less, and I would agree with that.
I just think the UK talks a good talk but I'm personally not seeing that much extra benefit since I had my last Zoe 3 years ago- in actual fact actual buying/leasing costs have gone up, the reason I don't have one now, I simply can't afford one.
Yes, we have other benefits besides, especially in BIK, but that doesn't help a private buyer.
And other countries have extra incentives too.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
Of course they aren't.
But if the Italians and other European countries can offer that level of subsidy, why don't/can't/won't we?

I wonder where all that money's going to come from ?
Italy has one incentive going, but an even more aggressive incentive is on the way.

The current one:
The government contributes 8000 EUR in incentives, but the car manufacturer has to match it partially with a discount of 2000 EUR for a total discount of 10.000 EUR.
In case of the Nissan Leaf at 21500 EUR, the list price is 35300 EUR, the government contributes 8000 EUR so Nissan has to discount it by 5.800 EUR.
This incentive runs through June 30th 2021 and has a ceiling list price of 50000 EUR excl. VAT.

The government is giving serious incentives for sure.
It won't cost the government any money, because it's fiscal stimulus.
The incentive is also applicable to leasing.

The next one:
Another incentive is on the way though to replace this one.
The new incentives will cover 40% of the purchase price until December 31st 2021 and are limited to households earning 30000 EUR or less and the car has to have a list price of less than 3.000 EUR including VAT and a power of less than 150kW. The incentives are applied directly to the purchase price.
So on a 30000 EUR car, the incentive will be as high as 12000 EUR.


Italy is doing its Covid fiscal stimulus through very extensive environment-friendly initiatives. It creates local jobs because the electricity will be produced locally as opposed to lining the pockets of big oil and the oil Sheiks. Renewables account for over 40% of electricity production, but we're likely to see a huge rise in the coming 2 years.
Home owners in Italy can get a 110% tax credit on up to 48000 EUR for installing photovoltaic cells plus another 48000 EUR for storage. (However, the bureaucracy is extensive and complex at the moment).
Small businesses in Southern Italy can get a 45% tax credit on spending up to 3 million EUR for photovoltaic cells.


But the car manufacturers have to do their part with a competitive offering and matching discounts, as well as accepting to be paid out the incentive through a corporate tax credit.
 

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Italy is totally bankrupt. The only reason they have not defaulted is the ECB buys all of their debt .

This will always be the case, unless one day the Germans get sick of it. Italy can never borrow on the open market again.

It's easy to spend money that is not yours with no consideration to it being paid back. The Italians are very good at spending other people's money on generous schemes like this for their wealthy middle class voters.

Currently Italys national debt is 2 trillion euros and rising. It is the third most indebted country in the world after the United States and Japan.

This doesn't include another 600 billion euros target 2 transfers to other European Central banks btw.

This for a country which has seen no meaningful growth for 20 years and with an economy which is quite frankly a basket case.

I find it worrying how little people understand important issues like this to be honest.

Suggesting we should do as the Italians do is quite frankly the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 · (Edited)
Italy is totally bankrupt. The only reason they have not defaulted is the ECB buys all of their debt .

This will always be the case, unless one day the Germans get sick of it. Italy can never borrow on the open market again.

It's easy to spend money that is not yours with no consideration to it being paid back. The Italians are very good at spending other people's money on generous schemes like this for their wealthy middle class voters.

Currently Italys national debt is 2 trillion euros and rising. It is the third most indebted country in the world after the United States and Japan.

This doesn't include another 600 billion euros target 2 transfers to other European Central banks btw.

This for a country which has seen no meaningful growth for 20 years and with an economy which is quite frankly a basket case.

I find it worrying how little people understand important issues like this to be honest.

Suggesting we should do as the Italians do is quite frankly the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

Italy was bankrupt for a long time, but what the recent governments since Conte took power are doing is undoing decades of mismanagement.
For the first time, Italy has competent governance.

Trenitalia is one of the few profitable state-owned railway companies in Europe with profitability on-par with Deutsche Bahn.
Enel is at the forefront of electric mobility with subsidiary Enel X, which is on its way to become one of the leading providers of public charging in Europe, with a presence in the USA.
EnelX is doing a great job developing a massive charging network in Italy.

The Italian government is now run by people who understand that you've got to spend money to make money.
Germany secretly subsidizes most of its industries, not the less the car industry :
Handelsblatt Exclusive: Car Chancellor Merkel
Germany is now also being very generous with Covid stimulus to SME's.
Without those subsidies, Germany would be as bankrupt as Italy.
The current Italian politicians have figured this out and have started massive investments in infrastructures and energy independence.

I think that Italy is getting the idea for cheap subsidized EV's from Germany in the first place:

Something similar is going on in France where 27% of the purchase price below 45000 EUR is covered up to a ceiling of 7000 EUR.


But it takes two to dance and if the OEM's don't chip in and offer affordable cars, none of this would be possible nor meaningful in the first place.
 

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EGGY
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After 25 years of going out with an Italian one thing I have learned is it isn't simple ! Italy is getting €209 billion of EU money (covid aid) and Draghi has hired his old mates at McKinsey to advice him how to spend it. If they ever get past the Italian bureaucracy that is. Meanwhile they'll be another couple of changes of government, the Mafia will steal anything that heads south and maybe they'll find another warehouse full of covid vaccines.

Great food, lovely people, fantastic scenery .... basket case of a country ... just buy 20 million electric scooters from the Taiwanese and be done with it :D
 
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Of course they aren't.
But if the Italians and other European countries can offer that level of subsidy, why don't/can't/won't we?
Because Britain is a very heavily indebted country with no future and expects its inhabitants to soak up even more debt :ROFLMAO:. Not a game I play.
 

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"Italy was bankrupt for a long time, but what the recent governments since Conte took power are doing is undoing decades of mismanagement.
For the first time, Italy has competent governance."

Just to correct you there. Italy is still completely bankrupt and in a dire economic situation. The EU Installing a compliant government (again) to do their bidding is not going to change this.

You can't magic away 170% of GDP debt and 0% growth. To suggest tiny macro economic stimulus like uneccesary EV grants will make any difference is simply not true.

Again it's ridiculous to compare UK or any large G7 economy to Germany or rich small Benelux / Scandanavia countries.

These countries have low public debt for various reasons the biggest being mercantile trade policy and an artificially devalued currency in the form of the euro. But this is another conversation entirely.

However it affords them the ability to provide unnecessary large subsidies for wealthy middle class voters in situations like this. They can afford to do so. In the UK we could afford to do so also but our budget surplus goes to proping up the Scottish with huge net subsidies not that this is appreciated or understood either.

It's also worth pointing out that Germany is the worst polluter in Europe. There is a lot of dirty heavy industry and they phased out nuclear replacing it with dirty coal for power generation and natural gas bought from.russia. So quite frankly the Germans are desperate to do anything to flatter their terrible Co2 emission figures.

Also a lot of the other countries mentioned are tiny in comparison to the UK market Germany aside. The main point is sustainability and what is best for the market in the long run.

The states is abetter comparison model to the UK where grants are also being phased out, removed from Tesla altogether in fact.

Grants are useful whilst the technology is evolving. Before it reaches critical mass and it is not cost effective to produce at scale.

However the technology has evolved now and reached critical mass. ICE cars are being phased out this is in no doubt.

EV is already at cost parity with ICE cars once they have scaled up production - which is now happening on mass look at the huge investment from manufacturers taking pkace . Telsa will have a hatchback model on the market soon with a retail price of $19,000 in the states at least in the next few years. This is without any ongoing government subsidy.

In this environment big subsidies are actually a huge negative for the market. They disincentivise innovation and manufacturers from producing vehicles efficiently and on a sustainable commercial basis.

It's very difficult to have a sensible discussion on a topic like this when the understanding of the fundamental issues are so poor.
 

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2quidforhalfanhour
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The fundamental issues are indeed complex and frankly impossible to unravel for a layman.
You mention subsidising the Scots, yet they get zero finance rates for buying an EV.
I mean. Just why??
I just want to buy an electric car for the same price parity as a petrol.
I can't in England, that's pretty simple.
So something needs to change.
 
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