[badmanwimmaculatelips]

Hi, I've recently noticed that my 1st Gen 24kw doesn't charge to 100% (and i've disabled the 'charge to 80%' on the timer). It goes to around 90% - not 100. This is on both the granny cable and a 3.3Kw (?) home charging point.

I also saw different 12V battery readings (it's 1 year old) once is was over 13V and the next time under 12V. Odd, possibly unrelated. Also, it's reporting low battery in the key - but only sometimes.

I ran Leafspy and saw this error code, but it then disappeared.

Any suggestions ?

Currently my plan is to disconnect the 12V battery, and see if this fixes the problem; then i might charge it on a regular old battery charger.

I'd like to get the full 100% charge, as on occasion i want to go 60-70 miles, which is getting to the limits of my older battery (78%SOH)

 

[Hermit Dave]

What about rapid charging? Can you go 100% on rapid?

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[badmanwimmaculatelips]

What about rapid charging? Can you go 100% on rapid?

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

Not tried a rapid to 'near full' lately, but i've a recollection that one time a couple (?) of weeks ago it went to 70% and turned off - which i thought was odd as i was expecting to get to 80%. Rapid was busy recently, and i could go for a slower charge instead.

 

[Hermit Dave]

Not tried a rapid to 'near full' lately, but i've a recollection that one time a couple (?) of weeks ago it went to 70% and turned off - which i thought was odd as i was expecting to get to 80%. Rapid was busy recently, and i could go for a slower charge instead.

I remember a leaf 24 restarting a charge to contribute beyond 70% at rapid before

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[badmanwimmaculatelips]

OK. I just did a 50 mile trip - starting from 90% and finished with 40% SOC and a predicted 22 miles to 5% (at 4 miles/kWh - had 31% GIDs 87). This was driving with three trees - so careful ! Based upon that, i might make 70 miles total range. But, that doesn't allow for 'events' etc.

 

[ahutcheon]

Are you charging to 100% on the timer? My 2014 doesn't get to 100% charged on the timer (the undershoot is variable, typically if I charge from 40% or so it lands up low-mid 80s). Charging without the timer gets to 100% (all with the granny running at 8A - I'm in NZ).

I'm guessing it's a mismatch between the car's estimate of charging time required and the actual charging rate (I'm out in the sticks, the house supply can sag to sub 220v vs NZ nominal 230v, the car is ex-Japan and estimates time for both 120v and 240v options).

Works for me, I timer charge at cheap rate and get 83% or whatever which should be kind to the battery. If I want to go a long way, or think it's time to let the car balance the battery, I disable the charge timer and set the delay start on the granny to cut in when the cheap rate starts.

 

[srichards]

Doesn't the gen 1 have poor cell balancing so it takes forever to manage it? I wonder if it's just got so far out of shape it can't get itself back?

I'd probably try rapiding it as far as you can. Then 7kw with no timer used until it stops and maybe restart with a 10 amp granny lead to see if a long slow charge gets it more sensible.

 

[badmanwimmaculatelips]

Are you charging to 100% on the timer? My 2014 doesn't get to 100% charged on the timer (the undershoot is variable, typically if I charge from 40% or so it lands up low-mid 80s). Charging without the timer gets to 100% (all with the granny running at 8A - I'm in NZ).

I'm guessing it's a mismatch between the car's estimate of charging time required and the actual charging rate (I'm out in the sticks, the house supply can sag to sub 220v vs NZ nominal 230v, the car is ex-Japan and estimates time for both 120v and 240v options).

Works for me, I timer charge at cheap rate and get 83% or whatever which should be kind to the battery. If I want to go a long way, or think it's time to let the car balance the battery, I disable the charge timer and set the delay start on the granny to cut in when the cheap rate starts.

Thanks - the 90% charge was using the 'override' button (and i'd turned off the 80% option, just in case).

I'd noticed that the GOM was a bit lower than usual over 'spring' but attributed this to ambient temperature - it might have been the approx 10% drop in charge rather than the temperature. I've not returned to the near 100mile GOM estimates that i had last summer - now it tends to be 70s (yet SoH has declined very little - gone from about 82 to 78%). It's a 2012, so the battery isn't anything like the newer Leafs.

Car is generally charged at my wife's workplace, daytime and to 80%.

 

[badmanwimmaculatelips]

Doesn't the gen 1 have poor cell balancing so it takes forever to manage it? I wonder if it's just got so far out of shape it can't get itself back?

I'd probably try rapiding it as far as you can. Then 7kw with no timer used until it stops and maybe restart with a 10 amp granny lead to see if a long slow charge gets it more sensible.

LeafSpy indicated the max cell difference of 21mV, at high SOC and and 18mV difference at 32% SOC (after doing the 50 mile trip). I've seen the max difference lower at other times. I was guessing that charging to 100% would reduce the cell-cell difference (and balancing doesn't happen when rapid charging ?).

Interestingly, the DTC charger fault cleared when i re-read them with Leafspy.

I tested the battery with a voltmeter and it was 12.65V (Leafspy reported 13.04V).

I think i'll try regular charge to 100% for a week or so, and see what effect that has.

 

[dk6780]

The error codes relate to issues with the PDM but normally don't clear. A long slow charge at 100% should allow for balancing and reduce the cell differences. But none of that explains why it isn't reaching 100%

 

[badmanwimmaculatelips]

The error codes relate to issues with the PDM but normally don't clear. A long slow charge at 100% should allow for balancing and reduce the cell differences. But none of that explains why it isn't reaching 100%

The codes popped up during the first time i've used Leafspy while charging - is this relevant ? I've not used Leafspy/OBD during a charge before...

Would the codes relate to the charger that was currently being used (my home charger, in this instance) ? And presumably they'd be different when using a granny cable ?

I'm guessing that the increased inter-module differences might have come from an extended period of charging to 80% ? But, if balancing only happens when charging to 100% then a lack of balancing is inevitable when using the 80% option. Surely Nissan would have foreseen this issue ?

Perhaps some granny cable charging might be the best option ?

 

[dk6780]

Let's just hope that the error codes stay away.

Nissan recommended that you charge to 100% every month, and that you wait for the last of the charging lights on the dash to stop. You reach 100% on the display about an hour before the lights stop so it is possible that your Wife is unplugging the car before the whole balancing cycle is finished as she will still see 100% when she starts the car. It doesn't harm the car doing that, but it is "good" to complete the full cycle occasionally.

 

[badmanwimmaculatelips]

Let's just hope that the error codes stay away.

Nissan recommended that you charge to 100% every month, and that you wait for the last of the charging lights on the dash to stop. You reach 100% on the display about an hour before the lights stop so it is possible that your Wife is unplugging the car before the whole balancing cycle is finished as she will still see 100% when she starts the car. It doesn't harm the car doing that, but it is "good" to complete the full cycle occasionally.

OK, now i'm worried - it sounds like the error code is serious !

She moved the charge timer forwards - to ensure it was done by the time she needed to drive it. I'll check, but i expect that the lights have always been off (she'd tell me otherwise, i suspect).

In general, charging times seem pretty short ? I think that this is because my battery only has around 16Kw of capacity left ?

 

[dk6780]

OK, now i'm worried - it sounds like the error code is serious !

No point in setting that hare running - the symptoms are that it doesn't charge at all rather than failing to charge to 100%

In general, charging times seem pretty short ? I think that this is because my battery only has around 16Kw of capacity left ?

It charges at around 3kW in terms of stored energy from a 3.6kW charge point and around 2kW from a Nissan "Granny" lead, but if there's less capacity or it doesn't go to 100% then it takes less time obviously.

 

[Edd Beesley]

When set permanently to 80% the car is "guessing" where 80% is. Then when you ask for 100% it will charge until a cell hits max voltage and stop. Maybe that's at "102%" or maybe at "95%" either way it's all guess work.

Best thing to do is run down to zero (you can leave it on the drive with the heater set at 30 to drain it completely), then recharge to 100% on the portable or 3.6kw EVSE, and let balancing finish. Now it will know much better where "80%" is.

Your degradation sounds pretty low as well. I expect you're lower than 78% really, so get ready to lose another capacity bar...!

 

[dk6780]

I expect you're lower than 78% really, so get ready to lose another capacity bar...!

Just to clarify @Edd Beesley - is that because the car has lost touch with the reality of its true top and bottom limits and thinks that it has more room available than is really the case?

78% is on the border of losing a bar anyway so it will not take much of a revaluation to lose the bar, but it is always a sad moment.

 

[badmanwimmaculatelips]

When set permanently to 80% the car is "guessing" where 80% is. Then when you ask for 100% it will charge until a cell hits max voltage and stop. Maybe that's at "102%" or maybe at "95%" either way it's all guess work.

Best thing to do is run down to zero (you can leave it on the drive with the heater set at 30 to drain it completely), then recharge to 100% on the portable or 3.6kw EVSE, and let balancing finish. Now it will know much better where "80%" is.

Your degradation sounds pretty low as well. I expect you're lower than 78% really, so get ready to lose another capacity bar...!

Thanks - i've not been very confident at running the battery down to very low. In a previous thread, i've noted how when i've 3 bar on the dash gauge (12miles on the GOM) Leafspy reports 30% SOC (corroborated by a fast charger). I've not had the determination and courage to find out what this means in regard to how far i can actually drive...

Degradation; i bought the car with only one bar gone in April 2019 (it's a 2012 with really low mileage - just at 20k now) and only lost another very recently (a couple of weeks ?). This seems to be unusual in relation to the experiences of others, and i've always wondered whether/why/how my Leaf might be different (or have been treated differently). My best guess is that since it was owned as part of a small group/fleet of Leafs by Perth council - the person in charge of them worked out how to manage the batteries/charging really well, and didn't leave them at 100% over the weekend or even during the week (?). Whatever. My only goal is to get to a stage where i'm confident that the car can do about 60 miles fully loaded - so that i can do a 110 mile journey with one rapid half way. This may not be possible... (and there's another rapid option so that i could do two stops - i'd just prefer not to...).

 

[Edd Beesley]

Just to clarify @Edd Beesley - is that because the car has lost touch with the reality of its true top and bottom limits and thinks that it has more room available than is really the case?

78% is on the border of losing a bar anyway so it will not take much of a revaluation to lose the bar, but it is always a sad moment.

Yes exactly, if it's ending charge "early" it's because it thinks it's at 90% when it's actually at 95+% and terminating the charge from a cell going high voltage. So it is over-estimating the available capacity. After a cycle and a sense check the reported capacity will go down, maybe significantly.

I've lost 5 bars so far, I am familiar with the sadness!

 

[Edd Beesley]

My only goal is to get to a stage where i'm confident that the car can do about 60 miles fully loaded - so that i can do a 110 mile journey with one rapid half way. This may not be possible... (and there's another rapid option so that i could do two stops - i'd just prefer not to...).

I'd say that is impossible. The first part (getting 60 miles from a charge) will be impossible in anything but warm dry weather and a low speed, and expecting to recharge an available 50 miles from a rapid in anything less than glacial timescales makes it worse. Last time I tried a rapid on my 2011 I don't believe I saw more than 25kw charge rate, when already on Low Battery Warning. I also don't get all the regents rings available until down below Very Low Battery Warning.

 

[badmanwimmaculatelips]

I'd say that is impossible. The first part (getting 60 miles from a charge) will be impossible in anything but warm dry weather and a low speed, and expecting to recharge an available 50 miles from a rapid in anything less than glacial timescales makes it worse. Last time I tried a rapid on my 2011 I don't believe I saw more than 25kw charge rate, when already on Low Battery Warning. I also don't get all the regents rings available until down below Very Low Battery Warning.

I've got a real world example of going this far. I drove 60 miles (Dunbar and back) on the A1 at around 55mph, and got home with two bars left. This was in July 2019. At the time, i think i had a low battery warning (not sure). The car had been sitting about for a while, and i wondered whether it might improve a bit with regular use.

If Leafspy is saying i've 78% SoH, this is likely to decrease quite a bit if i do a 'full cycle' top to bottom?