Speak EV - Electric Car Forums banner
1 - 20 of 82 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
120 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Interesting that fuel cell tech is more "applicable for grid/industrial applications" but the government advisors don't feel the reliability is there yet (they need a reliability of about 10x times that of automotive applications).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
120 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Heavy trucks - current competition being run that has attracted three schemes: Battery BEV, BEV plus centenary wires over the road and hydrogen fuel cells.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
367 Posts
Heavy trucks - current competition being run that has attracted three schemes: Battery BEV, BEV plus centenary wires over the road and hydrogen fuel cells.
do they mean like trams with a pantograph? Initially I thought that‘d be crazy but perhaps for some key trunk routes it could make sense - eg from ports to distribution hubs
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
186 Posts
do they mean like trams with a pantograph? Initially I thought that‘d be crazy but perhaps for some key trunk routes it could make sense - eg from ports to distribution hubs
Yes. Makes a lot of sense for trucking. Already being trialled on a section of A5 motorway near Frankfurt:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,589 Posts
Heavy trucks - current competition being run that has attracted three schemes: Battery BEV, BEV plus centenary wires over the road and hydrogen fuel cells.
Thanks for the commentary. Very interesting. I saw yesterday that Scania is withdrawing from their fuel cell development plan even though they have a model on sale. They don't think it will ever stack up against batteries on economy grounds.

“Scania has invested in hydrogen technologies and is currently the only heavy-duty vehicle manufacturer with vehicles in operations with customers. The engineers have gained valuable insights from these early tests and efforts will continue. However, going forward the use of hydrogen for such applications will be limited since three times as much renewable electricity is needed to power a hydrogen truck compared to a battery electric truck. A great deal of energy is namely lost in the production, distribution, and conversion back to electricity.

Repair and maintenance also need to be considered. The cost for a hydrogen vehicle will be higher than for a battery electric vehicle as its systems are more complex, such as an extensive air- and cooling system. Furthermore, hydrogen is a volatile gas which requires more maintenance to ensure safety.”

Scania Ditches Fuel Cell Trucks To Focus On Full Electric (cleantechnica.com)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
120 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
The theme on the webcast is that policymakers are obsessed (or being led to be) with HYDROGEN and subconsiously linking that to smaller transport. A sort of cognitive bias. The advisors are talking about Hydrogen as a wider energy vector as part of Net Zero NOT about hydrogen in cars. So, if policymakers are confused then what hope is there for the person on the street.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,589 Posts
Yes. Makes a lot of sense for trucking. Already being trialled on a section of A5 motorway near Frankfurt:
I agree - an overhead wire on main routes will greatly extend the range over only batteries. Will be interesting to follow developments.

Back to the Future, here comes the trolley bus!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
120 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
What it tells me is that we might be in better hands than the press VOXpops have us believe. It also convinces me that beyond the EV bubble I live in, there is growing consensus that BEV already have won. They are inviting greater incentives, attention and research and this about the right tool for the job right now.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
120 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
The advisors are considering the energy 'systems' in a refreshing way rather than the polarised BEV vs Hydrogen distraction. They are doing BOTH just not in the all the same applications. You can have hydrogen, it just doesn't need to be in passenger cars to play a really important role.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
120 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
"Batteries are strategic, 10year NOT 5 year journey. The UK £300M investment is smaller than EU 3BEUR and US 1.2B$ but it is over a shorter timeframe. Advisors are worried that it's not as much as it should be." paraphrased of course
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
842 Posts
If I recall correctly, Hydrogen production by electrolysis is 40% efficient and fuel cells also around 40% giving a combined efficiency of 16% without taking into account additional losses in transportation and storage.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
120 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
If I recall correctly, Hydrogen production by electrolysis is 40% efficient and fuel cells also around 40% giving a combined efficiency of 16% without taking into account additional losses in transportation and storage.
Yes pretty crappy. But I can now see that the government advisors are thinking about Net Zero (for better or worse).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,739 Posts
I think the catenary idea is a bit like hydrogen. Looks good but actually has a lot of downsides.

What happened to in road inductive charging? There were demos of that some time ago.
Probably more expensive to install but gets round most of the problems of catenary.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,589 Posts
Here's my guess on how we'll power the future:
1. Light Vans and smaller vehicles - BEV
2. Heavy Trucks - BEV + Catenary (maybe even buses to get range if needed?)
3. Ships - Ammonia Fuel Cell
4. Small planes - Hydrogen fuel cell
5. Big planes - renewable Synfuel
6. Cement, Steel - Hydrogen combustion

I'll bookmark this to come back once every 5 years to check progress and claim my winnings!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,589 Posts
I think the catenary idea is a bit like hydrogen. Looks good but actually has a lot of downsides.

What happened to in road inductive charging? There were demos of that some time ago.
Probably more expensive to install but gets round most of the problems of catenary.
What are the downsides? I'm not old enough to remember trolley buses, but that was old-tech that worked fine, didn't it?

My own gut reaction was if we can have catenary on motorways that makes heavy BEV trucks feasible as the battery size will be much smaller. Of course, it needs to be a "modern" design so the trucks can easily slip on and off the wire, etc. But we're really clever these days, aren't we?
 
1 - 20 of 82 Posts
Top