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ID3 Life Pro - Stonewashed Blue Towbar
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Absolutely not. Basic plug is absolutely fine in most cases, maybe costs around £65 instead of around £650.
Of course if the point/parking space is not next to the house the costs may escalate dramatically.
People who don't drive don't need any of this so why should they pay for it?
Then you'd best oppose the proposed legislation which is for a 7kW smart charger. My argument is that if you are going to install a charger then best make it as future proof as possible and beneficial to us all through supporting the grid.

Otherwise you may as well not bother installing a charger and just mandate the cabling as others have suggested
 

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Of course it is not only the owner who benefits from a charger at every home. As my EV sceptic friends would have it, range is the big factor against EVs, well if they visit me, they don’t have a problem, they could recharge. If I visit them I have the problem of needing to charge en-route at some point. It makes good sense to build them in, and whilst they are at it install 3 phase supply. All induction hobs have 3 phase capability from what I have read, bigger cars have 3 phase capability and so do big heat pumps. And cost, at bulk prices and no VAT on new build houses, the cost of a charger on a housing estate will be more like £400, if that. Design it all in from day one and it will take the sparky an hour to install.
 

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This all sounds great.

Is there a risk that if everyone has 7kW they just plug it in when they get home from work and it does all the charging in the peak hours, causing too high demand?

Or do we think most people will be using programming to take advantages of lower rates between say midnight and 5am.
 

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This all sounds great.

Is there a risk that if everyone has 7kW they just plug it in when they get home from work and it does all the charging in the peak hours, causing too high demand?

Or do we think most people will be using programming to take advantages of lower rates between say midnight and 5am.
Over the last couple of years loads of EVs have appeared on the estate. From chatting to them most just charge when needed at anytime during the day. Nobody has solar on the estate. Almost nobody is aware of Go etc. I know, it's not all about cost, e.g. my Ohme charger [now flogged] could be set to to charge when the grid is cleaner. Cheers!
 

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This all sounds great.

Is there a risk that if everyone has 7kW they just plug it in when they get home from work and it does all the charging in the peak hours, causing too high demand?

Or do we think most people will be using programming to take advantages of lower rates between say midnight and 5am.
When everyone is charging their car I don’t think lower rates are going to be a thing.
 

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Absolutely not. Basic plug is absolutely fine in most cases, maybe costs around £65 instead of around £650.
Of course if the point/parking space is not next to the house the costs may escalate dramatically.
People who don't drive don't need any of this so why should they pay for it?

I'd like to see how anyone could install a "basic plug" for EV charging that costs less than about £250 to £300. You cannot even buy the required circuit protection for that grossly unrealistically low price. To comply with wiring regs even a 13 A outlet provided for EV charging needs a separate circuit with double pole Type B RCD protection, even if it's at the back of an attached garage. If it's to enable charging outside it also needs open PEN fault protection, increasing the cost.

That's leaving aside the risks associated with charging at 10 A for long periods of time from a 13 A outlet. A 50% charge in my car from such an outlet would mean leaving it plugged in and charging for around eighteen and a half hours. A full charge would take about 37 hours, which is frankly just not practical. Given that larger battery packs are now becoming commonplace, the practicality of using a 10 A portable charge point is reducing.
 

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ID3 Life Pro - Stonewashed Blue Towbar
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I'm not in favour of encouraging 3 phase supply as it's a recipe for overloading the grid and not encouraging homeowners to use smart devices that will help reduce peaks.

The government also appear to have taken into account the fear of everyone charging as soon as they get home by mandating that new chargers have off peak scheduled charge by default or use a DSR agreement. Just like the arguments above, many will plug in when they get home and not care when it charged, only that the car is chatged by morning.
 

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Three phase supply could make life easier at least for the local distribution by keeping the current per phase better balanced. As for off peak scheduling, price tariffs with cheap off peak power should provide enough encouragement for most users.
 

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Three phase supply could make life easier at least for the local distribution by keeping the current per phase better balanced. As for off peak scheduling, price tariffs with cheap off peak power should provide enough encouragement for most users.
But it won't be "off peak" when everyone is charging their car, more like "overloaded".
 

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The grid people don't seem all that bothered, and they welcome increased overnight use for better balance. It's not as if they haven't thought about all this. Currently capacity grid is good because of the number of electric storage heating system that were provided for but are no longer used, and the switch from incandescent to LED lighting.
Anyway daytime industrial power usage is huge. It would take a lot of car charging to match that.
 

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To put this in perspective - in 2019 there were c.180k new 'homes' built. Of these about 30% were flats. If we say another 10-15% were houses without a driveway etc.. then its roughly 100k charging points a year to be added. By 2030 thats another 800k domestic points. I suppose its a step - but probably not enough.

Its a nice idea - and moves things along, but I would have thought extending/increasing the existing grant scheme would be better as this then puts chargers in the hands of people who actually want/need them. Especially WRT workplaces/communal chargepoints for flats etc..

Interesting angle on this in the Guardian today - saying the scheme re-enforces the positioning of EV's towards those with wealth, raising some good inclusion points. Plan for car chargers in all UK new homes ‘will make access exclusive’
 

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But it won't be "off peak" when everyone is charging their car, more like "overloaded".

Have you looked at daily demand variation?


There's usually around well over 10GW difference between peak and off-peak demand each day, and also around another maybe 20GW of generation reserve capacity on top of that. A typical night time demand at the moment is around 28GW or so, day time is peaking at around 42GW. Just time shifting most charging means there's no need for any more generation capacity for a few years yet. As for grid overload, it's worth noting that we use a lot less electricity now than we did around 15 years ago, and the grid distribution system hasn't been downsized since then.

If you look back at the recent history of generated electricity delivered to the grid then it's clear that the grid has a LOT of spare distribution capacity now, although there is a potential issue with the distribution of that capacity, partly caused by the change in the geographic location of major new generators:

Rectangle Slope Plot Font Parallel

The spare capacity relative to 2005 is pretty clear from these data, and shows that we have a lot of headroom within the existing grid capacity before we get close to having to consider major changes.
 

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Discussion Starter · #154 ·
To put this in perspective - in 2019 there were c.180k new 'homes' built. Of these about 30% were flats. If we say another 10-15% were houses without a driveway etc.. then its roughly 100k charging points a year to be added. By 2030 thats another 800k domestic points. I suppose its a step - but probably not enough.

Its a nice idea - and moves things along, but I would have thought extending/increasing the existing grant scheme would be better as this then puts chargers in the hands of people who actually want/need them. Especially WRT workplaces/communal chargepoints for flats etc..

Interesting angle on this in the Guardian today - saying the scheme re-enforces the positioning of EV's towards those with wealth, raising some good inclusion points. Plan for car chargers in all UK new homes ‘will make access exclusive’
I thought the plan includes allocated parking so even if you don't have a driveway you'll need any parking spaces to have EV points?

This has to be a multi-pronged approach so new builds to be covered, and local government to help with offstreet charging (with central government support too)
 

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Have you looked at daily demand variation?


There's usually around well over 10GW difference between peak and off-peak demand each day, and also around another maybe 20GW of generation reserve capacity on top of that. A typical night time demand at the moment is around 28GW or so, day time is peaking at around 42GW. Just time shifting most charging means there's no need for any more generation capacity for a few years yet. As for grid overload, it's worth noting that we use a lot less electricity now than we did around 15 years ago, and the grid distribution system hasn't been downsized since then.

If you look back at the recent history of generated electricity delivered to the grid then it's clear that the grid has a LOT of spare distribution capacity now, although there is a potential issue with the distribution of that capacity, partly caused by the change in the geographic location of major new generators:

View attachment 153181
The spare capacity relative to 2005 is pretty clear from these data, and shows that we have a lot of headroom within the existing grid capacity before we get close to having to consider major changes.
I wasn't thinking so much the technical aspect of it, more the commercial opportunity.

I'm maybe not so optimistic as some here, but I struggle to believe that when we have millions of cars charging at 7kWh all at the same time (in the small hours) that it's going to cost 5p per unit. I really do hope I'm proved wrong.
 

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The grid people don't seem all that bothered, and they welcome increased overnight use for better balance. It's not as if they haven't thought about all this. Currently capacity grid is good because of the number of electric storage heating system that were provided for but are no longer used, and the switch from incandescent to LED lighting.
Anyway daytime industrial power usage is huge. It would take a lot of car charging to match that.
Last meeting I attended with grid or dno input, they were wanting the randomisation of switching time, (as per a teleswitch) you get the same effect from a mechanical time clock in reality as they are all off a bit. Other than avoiding instantaneous surges they were utterly unconcerned with overall grid transmission / distribution capacity. Not to say there aren’t hot spots that need reinforcement, but general picture ok.
Generation capacity is a different thing, but we don’t really need much dsr available to lop a unit out of the winter peak.
 

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I wasn't thinking so much the technical aspect of it, more the commercial opportunity.

I'm maybe not so optimistic as some here, but I struggle to believe that when we have millions of cars charging at 7kWh all at the same time (in the small hours) that it's going to cost 5p per unit. I really do hope I'm proved wrong.
The only reason we have a cheaper overnight electricity cost is because we have a very skewed diurnal demand. What will happen with time is that the peak rate will reduce and the off-peak rate will increase, until we have a rate that's pretty much the same all through the day. At that point we're back where we were before we started to install White meters 50 years ago, and in all probability all the variable rate ToU tariffs will disappear.


Last meeting I attended with grid or dno input, they were wanting the randomisation of switching time, (as per a teleswitch) you get the same effect from a mechanical time clock in reality as they are all off a bit. Other than avoiding instantaneous surges they were utterly unconcerned with overall grid transmission / distribution capacity. Not to say there aren’t hot spots that need reinforcement, but general picture ok.
Generation capacity is a different thing, but we don’t really need much dsr available to lop a unit out of the winter peak.
I agree, and have heard much the same. There's a demonstrable surfeit of grid distribution capacity in the main, with the exception of the need for some more interconnects to address some regional differences caused largely by the geographical shift in both demand and generation. There's actually a pretty good argument for just using something simple like the old Teleswitch units to balance the grid. They tended to be long lasting and reliable, I still see homes with them installed and working, maybe 40 years after they were fitted.
 

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People who don't drive don't need any of this so why should they pay for it?
People who don't drive do not need to buy a house with a parking space, so will not need to pay for the cost of providing a charge point.

The cost of the equipment is likely to come down a lot when there's a standard requirement and a large-scale market of all the new-build houses in the country. There will be "standard mains supply kits" providing everything except the cables, for the whole of the contents of the plastic meter box and the charge point. My guess would be that a house builder with 10+ houses to build would pay about half what it would cost today to get the equivalent kit from Screwfix or Toolstation and a specialist or two.

Unfortunately, all but the best builders will skimp on the labour cost of installing the standard kits. Let's hope they become practically foolproof.
 

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We have consistently built less than 200,000 new homes per year for the last decade vs 20M households and 30M cars. So whilst mandating for some new charge points can't be a bad thing the issue is, as always, retrofitting existing properties.
 
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