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I imagine if that did happen then there would be a massive uptick in sales of old granny chargers or 32A portable chargers, having been "grandfathered" into the legislation by not being illegal at the time of purchase.

If there is road charging it will be via tolls on major motorways and expressways, enforced by cameras, I suspect.
 

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Add in the enforcement powers so that they can send masked officers around in the dead of night to confiscate your "granny" lead for being non-compliant. ;) :devilish:
 

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Add in the enforcement powers so that they can send masked officers around in the dead of night to confiscate your "granny" lead for being non-compliant. ;) :devilish:

The enforcement power in this new law do seem a bit draconian. Hard to see why there needs to be a power of entry at all, TBH, seems to be way OTT for something like a charge point. There's no power of entry to inspect any other power outlet in a house:

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Isn't the enforcement, like the rest of the regulation, applicable only to those who "sell, or offer or advertise for sale" equipment for charge points, not to the unlucky purchaser of a dodgy one?
 

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Isn't the enforcement, like the rest of the regulation, applicable only to those who "sell, or offer or advertise for sale" equipment for charge points, not to the unlucky purchaser of a dodgy one?
No, it appears to be sufficiently open as to include everybody. So for example, if the "crime" of you having one of these non-compliant charge points installed at your property has taken place, surely "they" need to inspect the device to ascertain that it is indeed of the wrong type? And in order to do that they would need to access your property and possibly remove it.
I also note that there is no clarification of the requirement to keep a list of all devices sold for ten years. So if I, as an individual, decide to upgrade one of my two existing charge points and sell the old one for spares it looks like I'm covered by the regulations.
The wording is draconian, but I would hope that common sense would prevail.
 

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The enforcement power in this new law do seem a bit draconian. Hard to see why there needs to be a power of entry at all, TBH, seems to be way OTT for something like a charge point. There's no power of entry to inspect any other power outlet in a house:

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They do specifically exclude private dwellings, though. Therefore not quite as worrying as some of the posts on here suggest.
 

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They do specifically exclude private dwellings, though. Therefore not quite as worrying as some of the posts on here suggest.
Only for entry without a warrant, not for entry with a warrant.

No magistrate is going to grant a warrant to check a 13 A outlet in a home, or a cooker point, as there is no law to allow this, so why should we have a law that allows checking a charge point to be done by force if necessary?
 

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I thought the plan includes allocated parking so even if you don't have a driveway you'll need any parking spaces to have EV points?
Absolutely and it was my main feedback during the consultation to make sure there wasn't any wriggle room for flat builders. Flats are really difficult and expensive to retrofit so getting charging points installed for allocated spaces was key. Cable routes for shared or non allocated spaces was also important.
 
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Only for entry without a warrant, not for entry with a warrant.

No magistrate is going to grant a warrant to check a 13 A outlet in a home, or a cooker point, as there is no law to allow this, so why should we have a law that allows checking a charge point to be done by force if necessary?
My apologies - you are, of course, quite right. Very concerning and completely disproportîonate to the situation.
 

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Given that larger battery packs are now becoming commonplace, the practicality of using a 10 A portable charge point is reducing.
Hm. Would having a battery mean you need to charge at a faster speed (higher current)? (I assume that's what you mean.) If you have a larger battery you aren't going to drain it down to zero or a low % very often, so you won't need to charge any more than normal. It's not like you suddenly need to charge 0% to 100% every day. Since the total amount of charge you need is about the same as before, you shouldn't need a faster charge. Overall it will be very roughly about the same (see below).

I can think of 4 reasons in your favour, but the first three of them are not big differences:

1. Now that you have a large battery, you use the car more, and travel further to places you wouldn't previously have gone, or would have previously gone in another vehicle, or by train or bus or plane. So the total miles have increased, so you need more juice. Maybe +5%.

2. A larger battery means the percentage of charge you are getting at home can increase. E.g. instead of charging your 40kWH battery to full and stopping for a charge on the way you now charge your 80kWH hour battery to full and drive directly to your destination. Maybe +5% home energy use.

3. Now you have a large battery you drive on the motorway at 75mph instead of 60mph as before, perhaps with heating and air con used more carelessly, even while parked for a while. Maybe another +5% since motorway driving without traffic is a minority of the driving.

4. The only reason you bought a car with a big battery is because you do a high mileage.

And 1 bigger reason why you might be wrong:

With a small battery you might get home with the battery at 20% one day (having started at 100%) and you have a long drive a few hours later and so you need a fast charge at home - 7kW perhaps. With the larger battery though, you arrived home from the first trip at only 50% but it doesn't matter you already have enough charge for the second trip. Faster charging speeds are actually more helpful in the case of the smaller battery.

With a larger battery you can be slow charging constantly and instead of using faster charging you can just go down into the lower % of the battery more.

This reason might be enough to counteract all the other reasons above.

Overall I'd say there is no need for faster charging speeds just because you have a large battery. It will depend on the case.

A large battery also works better with very slow solar charging. Cloudy all week? Just don't charge it for the whole week.Sunny all next week? Charge it every single day that week. Can't do that with a small battery.
 

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Hm. Would having a battery mean you need to charge at a faster speed (higher current)? (I assume that's what you mean.) If you have a larger battery you aren't going to drain it down to zero or a low % very often, so you won't need to charge any more than normal. It's not like you suddenly need to charge 0% to 100% every day. Since the total amount of charge you need is about the same as before, you shouldn't need a faster charge. Overall it will be very roughly about the same (see below).

I can think of 4 reasons in your favour, but the first three of them are not big differences:

1. Now that you have a large battery, you use the car more, and travel further to places you wouldn't previously have gone, or would have previously gone in another vehicle, or by train or bus or plane. So the total miles have increased, so you need more juice. Maybe +5%.

2. A larger battery means the percentage of charge you are getting at home can increase. E.g. instead of charging your 40kWH battery to full and stopping for a charge on the way you now charge your 80kWH hour battery to full and drive directly to your destination. Maybe +5% home energy use.

3. Now you have a large battery you drive on the motorway at 75mph instead of 60mph as before, perhaps with heating and air con used more carelessly, even while parked for a while. Maybe another +5% since motorway driving without traffic is a minority of the driving.

4. The only reason you bought a car with a big battery is because you do a high mileage.

And 1 bigger reason why you might be wrong:

With a small battery you might get home with the battery at 20% one day (having started at 100%) and you have a long drive a few hours later and so you need a fast charge at home - 7kW perhaps. With the larger battery though, you arrived home from the first trip at only 50% but it doesn't matter you already have enough charge for the second trip. Faster charging speeds are actually more helpful in the case of the smaller battery.

With a larger battery you can be slow charging constantly and instead of using faster charging you can just go down into the lower % of the battery more.

This reason might be enough to counteract all the other reasons above.

Overall I'd say there is no need for faster charging speeds just because you have a large battery. It will depend on the case.

A large battery also works better with very slow solar charging. Cloudy all week? Just don't charge it for the whole week.Sunny all next week? Charge it every single day that week. Can't do that with a small battery.
Great post, although there is one other reason that slow charging works less well for bigger batteried cars: they are heavier and bigger, so less efficient. Therefore they need more juice to do the same mileage. Think iPace vs Ioniq. (Or, sadly, Ioniq 5 vs Ioniq.)
 

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Hm. Would having a battery mean you need to charge at a faster speed (higher current)? (I assume that's what you mean.) If you have a larger battery you aren't going to drain it down to zero or a low % very often, so you won't need to charge any more than normal. It's not like you suddenly need to charge 0% to 100% every day. Since the total amount of charge you need is about the same as before, you shouldn't need a faster charge. Overall it will be very roughly about the same (see below).

I can think of 4 reasons in your favour, but the first three of them are not big differences:

1. Now that you have a large battery, you use the car more, and travel further to places you wouldn't previously have gone, or would have previously gone in another vehicle, or by train or bus or plane. So the total miles have increased, so you need more juice. Maybe +5%.

2. A larger battery means the percentage of charge you are getting at home can increase. E.g. instead of charging your 40kWH battery to full and stopping for a charge on the way you now charge your 80kWH hour battery to full and drive directly to your destination. Maybe +5% home energy use.

3. Now you have a large battery you drive on the motorway at 75mph instead of 60mph as before, perhaps with heating and air con used more carelessly, even while parked for a while. Maybe another +5% since motorway driving without traffic is a minority of the driving.

4. The only reason you bought a car with a big battery is because you do a high mileage.

And 1 bigger reason why you might be wrong:

With a small battery you might get home with the battery at 20% one day (having started at 100%) and you have a long drive a few hours later and so you need a fast charge at home - 7kW perhaps. With the larger battery though, you arrived home from the first trip at only 50% but it doesn't matter you already have enough charge for the second trip. Faster charging speeds are actually more helpful in the case of the smaller battery.

With a larger battery you can be slow charging constantly and instead of using faster charging you can just go down into the lower % of the battery more.

This reason might be enough to counteract all the other reasons above.

Overall I'd say there is no need for faster charging speeds just because you have a large battery. It will depend on the case.

A large battery also works better with very slow solar charging. Cloudy all week? Just don't charge it for the whole week.Sunny all next week? Charge it every single day that week. Can't do that with a small battery.

Depends on your pattern of use and the energy efficiency of the car. For example, an I-Pace does maybe 200 miles on around 80 kWh in cold weather. My pattern of use is a day out once a week or so, typically around 150 miles or so. I need the car to be ready to drive at least 150 miles the next day (elderly relative) which means I need to be able to put 150 miles into the car overnight if I can. 150 miles is around 60 kWh in winter, which at 10 A would mean charging for over 26 hours, so is just impractical.
 

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Depends on your pattern of use and the energy efficiency of the car. For example, an I-Pace does maybe 200 miles on around 80 kWh in cold weather. My pattern of use is a day out once a week or so, typically around 150 miles or so. I need the car to be ready to drive at least 150 miles the next day (elderly relative) which means I need to be able to put 150 miles into the car overnight if I can. 150 miles is around 60 kWh in winter, which at 10 A would mean charging for over 26 hours, so is just impractical.
As I live with low ‘potencia’ I’ve been playing with different power settings on my charger over the last few years.

I found 10-12 amps way to low to be practical.

16 amps is about the minimum I could live with for daily use. 20 amps is more than adequate.

The only reason we have 32 amp chargers is it will give us a decent charge overnight if we’ve been on a long journey. Or want to use cheap night time rates.
 

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The funny thing is that when I had the Model 3 I'd have been fine with a 16 A or 20 A charge, but since getting the I-Pace the need for more juice is more apparent! I'm not bothered by the small cost of charging difference, but there is definitely a need for more current just to get charge times down. The Model 3 never needed to charge more than one overnight cheap rate slot, but there have been a few times when the car's not been charged after one night's charging.
 

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Depends on your pattern of use and the energy efficiency of the car. For example, an I-Pace does maybe 200 miles on around 80 kWh in cold weather. My pattern of use is a day out once a week or so, typically around 150 miles or so. I need the car to be ready to drive at least 150 miles the next day (elderly relative) which means I need to be able to put 150 miles into the car overnight if I can. 150 miles is around 60 kWh in winter, which at 10 A would mean charging for over 26 hours, so is just impractical.
Yeah, we need to keep our cars with a similar range (or ideally more) in case of a trip to mother-in-law at short notice. She is around 100 miles from our new place and we can charge there, but only 16A. So on a short visit we often don't get many miles added, especially if we need to take her somewhere. That said, we typically just charge for 4 hours on GO when we return as still plenty to get there, if not back - although likelihood of going there two days running is slim.
 

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I'd like to see how anyone could install a "basic plug" for EV charging that costs less than about £250 to £300. You cannot even buy the required circuit protection for that grossly unrealistically low price. To comply with wiring regs even a 13 A outlet provided for EV charging needs a separate circuit with double pole Type B RCD protection, even if it's at the back of an attached garage. If it's to enable charging outside it also needs open PEN fault protection, increasing the cost.

That's leaving aside the risks associated with charging at 10 A for long periods of time from a 13 A outlet. A 50% charge in my car from such an outlet would mean leaving it plugged in and charging for around eighteen and a half hours. A full charge would take about 37 hours, which is frankly just not practical. Given that larger battery packs are now becoming commonplace, the practicality of using a 10 A portable charge point is reducing.
I thought it was still possible to TT an EVSE.

Since when did PEN fault protection become compulsory? ,I. E. TT not allowed

Do the regs recommend that PEN fault protection is installed when the DNO has confirmed that supply to the property is TNS,?
 

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I thought it was still possible to TT an EVSE.

Since when did PEN fault protection become compulsory? ,I. E. TT not allowed

Do the regs recommend that PEN fault protection is installed when the DNO has confirmed that supply to the property is TNS,?
You've lost me, I'm afraid. I made no reference to any particular form of open PEN fault protection, and wiring an installation as TT is just one way of providing this for any EV charging outlet connected to a TN supply. I didn't bother mentioning each open PEN fault protection method individually, didn't see the point of doing so, TBH.

The reason for the regs applying to outlets installed for EV charging (not necessarily just an EVSE) that are fed from a TN supply (so either TN-C-S or TN-S) is that it's very common for DNOs to change TN-S supplies to TN-C-S, and this change may well not be noticeable at the consumer side. DNOs regularly repair earth faults on TN-S cables by connecting the PE to N to get Ze down, it's pretty much a standard fix now. This means that it can be difficult to determine the earthing arrangement from just looking at an incoming supply - it can look as if it's TN-S, when in reality it may have been converted to TN-C-S (the DNOs don't keep records at the individual premises level usually). The DNO are supposed to ensure that labels are fitted near the head when they make TN-S supplies TN-C-S, but often this doesn't happen, if, say, they do a repair in the street and cannot gain access to the house to apply the label.

For completeness, open PEN fault protection, for a outlet used for EV charging from a TN supply could be provided by:
  • an isolating transformer, or
  • a very low resistance earth electrode as a supplementary earth, or
  • a voltage sensing device that isolates the live conductors and the CPC in the event of the phase to neutral voltage going outside defined limits, or
  • a device that has equivalent functionality as the device that uses the voltage sensing method, or
  • the circuit can be connected as a TT island.
Is that better?
 
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