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Nickel.

Cobalt applies too, most BEV batteries still use the stuff. There is a 'move' to do without it, but it is one of the better transition metals for batteries.

What difference does it make where it comes from and goes to. My point is that if you load up the world's supply streams of nickel with demand for a billion BEVs, where are you going to 'recycle' all of the needed nickel from?
Did you not bring up where it comes from?
Honestly your style of arguing makes it look like you disagree with yourself as much as anyone else.
 

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Did you not bring up where it comes from?
Honestly your style of arguing makes it look like you disagree with yourself as much as anyone else.
Not sure I follow. I agree to counting in the cost of everything. What I am trying to establish if this only applies to ICE cars and their fuel, or also BEV cars and their electricity too?

Let's count everything in, yes, the whole lot.

Because if you are moving from an ICE to a BEV you're still part of the problem. You might be a smaller part of the problem (but that depends on your needs and usage). But to avoid the impact of 'cars' on the planet then throw away your cars and stop being 'holier-than-thou'.

..... Nothing to be smug about if you still have a car ....
 

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Not sure I follow. I agree to counting in the cost of everything. What I am trying to establish if this only applies to ICE cars and their fuel, or also BEV cars and their electricity too?

Let's count everything in, yes, the whole lot.

Because if you are moving from an ICE to a BEV you're still part of the problem. You might be a smaller part of the problem (but that depends on your needs and usage). But to avoid the impact of 'cars' on the planet then throw away your cars and stop being 'holier-than-thou'.

..... Nothing to be smug about if you still have a car ....
Ok so do a proper life cycle analysis and BEV is going to be less damaging than ICE, and progressively the margin increases as our electricity is decarbonised.
People who are not queuing for hours to get fuel, and have also acted to reduce their impact on the world can still be smug.
People who walk, cycle, or who are on a horse also get to be smugger.
If you like you can also be little smug about getting good mpg from your diesel. This also reduces your impact somewhat.
 

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Not sure I follow. I agree to counting in the cost of everything. What I am trying to establish if this only applies to ICE cars and their fuel, or also BEV cars and their electricity too?

Let's count everything in, yes, the whole lot.

Because if you are moving from an ICE to a BEV you're still part of the problem. You might be a smaller part of the problem (but that depends on your needs and usage). But to avoid the impact of 'cars' on the planet then throw away your cars and stop being 'holier-than-thou'.

..... Nothing to be smug about if you still have a car ....
Or we've can do it this way...
 

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Ok so do a proper life cycle analysis and BEV is going to be less damaging than ICE, and progressively the margin increases as our electricity is decarbonised.
Well, go ahead and show me.

But you're still taking the cheap shots rather than dealing with the question of where all the raw materials for a billion BEVs is going to come from.

The raw materials for replacement of a billion ICE are already driving around on the roads, once they are recycled over again (using renewable energy). Where is all the stuff for BEVs going to come from?
 

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But you're still taking the cheap shots rather than dealing with the question of where all the raw materials for a billion BEVs is going to come from.
Same place we got all the stuff to dig oil out of the ground and build all the ICEs.
 

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We're still at the early stage of EV's and battery chemistries are evolving. Right now it's not possible to say what minerals will be required in 10 or 50 years. Mines only extract the quantities of minerals that they can sell at a profit and if the demand goes up and the price then it becomes economic to mine different deposits. Equally if the price of nickel rises then its use in other industries will probably be reduced. Apart from the battery, the vast majority of the materials used to build an EV are the same ones used in an ICE vehicle.

One thing that's certain is that in about 100 years we have gone past peak oil, it's pretty clear that we can't continue to just burn the stuff. How long have we got until oil is beyond the pocket of the average person? It's not clear to me that bio fuel could sensibly be manufactured in the volumes that we burn now. Do we really want fracking over large swathes of the country, and how long would that delay expensive oil.
 

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Well, go ahead and show me.

But you're still taking the cheap shots rather than dealing with the question of where all the raw materials for a billion BEVs is going to come from.

The raw materials for replacement of a billion ICE are already driving around on the roads, once they are recycled over again (using renewable energy). Where is all the stuff for BEVs going to come from?
The commodity most in demand for these extractive industries is Fossil carbon. If you want to reduce these damaging extractive industries which you seem to find so problematic why not start there?
 

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Well, go ahead and show me.

But you're still taking the cheap shots rather than dealing with the question of where all the raw materials for a billion BEVs is going to come from.

The raw materials for replacement of a billion ICE are already driving around on the roads, once they are recycled over again (using renewable energy). Where is all the stuff for BEVs going to come from?
You are very quick to post pictures of children artisanal mining, but you seem oblivious to the ones killed by illegal flaring in the niger Delta. It's been illegal since 1984, but it's increasing not decreasing. It's also not supposed to be the case that oil and gas industry puts there installations on land used for residential purposes but they do that too, and build flow pipes over people's houses.
 

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You are very quick to post pictures of children artisanal mining, but you seem oblivious to the ones killed by illegal flaring in the niger Delta. It's been illegal since 1984, but it's increasing not decreasing. It's also not supposed to be the case that oil and gas industry puts there installations on land used for residential purposes but they do that too, and build flow pipes over people's houses.
Rather than continuing with cheap shots, it'd help to understand where all the raw materials for a billion BEVs is going to come from.
 

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The thread is about petrol queues...
It's about being smug because you own a BEV.

As well you might, you can be smug that you have a BEV ..... before there are supply chain problems in feeding the BEV manufacturing lines.

I'm pro BEV and hope the transition is smooth and not too damaging to the environment and people's welfare, but to believe the transition will have zero effect is naïve.

A cut-off date for ICE sales is also naïve, if the aim is reduced AGW effect. There will be an initial surge of extra CO2 as all these materials are processed and turned into cars. A graduated transition would reduce that impact and also allow those car users who have different transportation requirements to you to choose what is optimal.

My other point is that EVangelists smugness in 'winning' the future ban on ICE means no more investment in ICE that could elevate their CO2 lifetime emissions to be comparable with BEV.
 

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It's about being smug because you own a BEV.

As well you might, you can be smug that you have a BEV ..... before there are supply chain problems in feeding the BEV manufacturing lines.

I'm pro BEV and hope the transition is smooth and not too damaging to the environment and people's welfare, but to believe the transition will have zero effect is naïve.

A cut-off date for ICE sales is also naïve, if the aim is reduced AGW effect. There will be an initial surge of extra CO2 as all these materials are processed and turned into cars. A graduated transition would reduce that impact and also allow those car users who have different transportation requirements to you to choose what is optimal.

My other point is that EVangelists smugness in 'winning' the future ban on ICE means no more investment in ICE that could elevate their CO2 lifetime emissions to be comparable with BEV.
Consumption is the problem, consuming less is the best answer, consuming nothing a bit too radical for my tastes.
We already have supply chain issues.
We also have a climate crisis.
Regulation is an effective way to bring about change. Try Norway where regulation and cut off dates have both been used to very effectively transition away from ICE.
 

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Consumption is the problem, consuming less is the best answer, consuming nothing a bit too radical for my tastes.
We already have supply chain issues.
We also have a climate crisis.
Regulation is an effective way to bring about change. Try Norway where regulation and cut off dates have both been used to very effectively transition away from ICE.
They have a 1/10th of the numbers of passenger cars to us, have a lot more money to buy them (effectively queue jumping the other countries for car products from abroad) and have oodles of hydropower.

Norway is very atypical, and just because a small minority of well-funded people can get a BEV doesn't mean it is simple for the rest of us.

You don't need a BEV to feel smug. Just a nice bank balance will do it.
 

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It's about being smug because you own a BEV.

As well you might, you can be smug that you have a BEV ..... before there are supply chain problems in feeding the BEV manufacturing lines.

I'm pro BEV and hope the transition is smooth and not too damaging to the environment and people's welfare, but to believe the transition will have zero effect is naïve.

A cut-off date for ICE sales is also naïve, if the aim is reduced AGW effect. There will be an initial surge of extra CO2 as all these materials are processed and turned into cars. A graduated transition would reduce that impact and also allow those car users who have different transportation requirements to you to choose what is optimal.

My other point is that EVangelists smugness in 'winning' the future ban on ICE means no more investment in ICE that could elevate their CO2 lifetime emissions to be comparable with BEV.
We're still at the early stage of EV's, with the exception of Tesla most manufacturers only have one or two models of EV's. Many manufacturers are still at the stage of making multi-powered cars which can have BEV, petrol or Hybrid powertrains. It's going to be many years before all ICE manufacturing is replaced by BEV's and there will no doubt be time for the mineral industries to adapt.

EV's are currently more costly than ICE equivalents but only by ramping up production and innovating can costs be brought down to to the point where all models can be produced at a price on par with their ICE equivalents. The transition will probably be fastest in rich countries but it will eventually filter down to the whole world. ICE car production won't stop when a few countries have banned new cars from sale, but as the volume of BEV production brings economies of scale, the production of ICE cars is going to go the other way when smaller volumes are manufactured and suppliers decide to drop out of the market. The same goes for fuel, as more of us move to BEV's the sale of petrol and diesel will fall, petrol stations and refineries will close as will oil extraction.

It's only new cars which will transition to BEV's and Hybrids sales will still be allowed for now, not every car on the road is suddenly going to be replaced. The cars owned by those buying BEV's will be sold on to continue their lives but eventually we'll no doubt get to the point where consumers decide they no longer want a petrol price and the values of them will fall.

I see the deadlines set by Governments as a helpful stick to force manufacturers to transition to new technologies. Without them it would be too easy for them to continue doing what they've always done.
 

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They have a 1/10th of the numbers of passenger cars to us, have a lot more money to buy them (effectively queue jumping the other countries for car products from abroad) and have oodles of hydropower.

Norway is very atypical, and just because a small minority of well-funded people can get a BEV doesn't mean it is simple for the rest of us.

You don't need a BEV to feel smug. Just a nice bank balance will do it.
I read that Norway hopes that its last new ICE car will be registered in April 2022, so looks like they will be leaving us far earlier than we could have hoped for. falling demand equals big rises in price
 

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I read that Norway hopes that its last new ICE car will be registered in April 2022, so looks like they will be leaving us far earlier than we could have hoped for. falling demand equals big rises in price
I didn’t know @donald was moving there?
 

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We're still at the early stage of EV's....

I see the deadlines set by Governments as a helpful stick to force manufacturers to transition to new technologies. Without them it would be too easy for them to continue doing what they've always done.
You're missing my point. The transition in this hard-deadline way will increase CO2 emissions, which is contrary to the objective.
 

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You're missing my point. The transition in this hard-deadline way will increase CO2 emissions, which is contrary to the objective.
Well fleet CO2 emissions from vehicles were increasing in the EU 2015 up to 2019, except in Norway, Sweden, Iceland and the Netherlands, where higher rates of EV adoption made them the exception and fleet emissions fell.
Apparently if we want fleet emissions to fall we need more EVs and more legislation to restrict fleet emissions. It seems clear given a choice the automakers are not interested in reducing emissions, hence they no longer have a choice.
 

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Well fleet CO2 emissions from vehicles were increasing in the EU 2015 up to 2019, except in Norway, Sweden, Iceland and the Netherlands, where .....
.... where they don't actually make any cars.

(#save the world and export your CO2 to another country)
 
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