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It's quite funny that donald is asking for numbers and evidence while spouting bullshit numbers from his arse. I remind people of the quote "A lie can travel around the world before truth can put it's shoes on"
Quite the troll is donald.
 

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Yes, they all generally find that EVs create more CO2 emissions during manufacture than ICE, typically due to the batteries, but that over the full life of the vehicle the total emissions are lower because of the efficiency. How quickly they break-even with ICE vehicles on emissions and how much lower those total emissions are is very sensitive to assumptions about the electricity used to charge them. As a rule, if you are buying a new vehicle and you do average annual mileages or more then an EV is the lower carbon option.

That said though EVs aren't a no carbon option and many of the reports find significant CO2 emissions during manufacture, EVs aren't good for the planet, they're just less bad than ICE.
Correct life cycle analysis shows over the life of the vehicle EV is considerably lower carbon.
As you say the analysis is sensitive to the source of the electricity with longer paybacks for coal heavy power, but this is as much about battery manufacturing as it is about use.

What is missed in Donald's point is that if you manufacture the battery with renewable energy there's a much lower carbon debt at the start. Indeed it's a margin that's shrinking fast already between ICE and EV.

I have read a few LCAs over the years. You can pick and choose numbers you like and dislike. Vested interests love to do that.

Those lazy or perhaps wishing to inflate the carbon debt problem choose to assume the battery takes the same energy to make as was published in early estimates in studies 10-15 years ago before production techniques really scaled. The same numbers gets regurgitated one study quoting another which quotes a previous which... this tends to significantly overestimate the energy needed for the battery by today's or (tomorrow's) production.

They then typically assume the battery is always made in China with lots of coal fired electricity, many batteries are made in China of course, but we do also need to factor in China's changing electricity mix (coal has a reduced share) and use an up to date number rather than an old one. It's not a dramatic improvement but between these two you can be wrong by tons of CO2.
Many batteries are of course not made in China and Chemistries change as does mass production, and electricity systems are generally getting cleaner.

In summary the big carbon debt is already a small carbon debt and will get very small and may even be negligible or reversed if there's a move to LFP.
 

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Of recent LCA studies I have skimmed....

one that stuck out for me was done by I think Mazda engineers. They made some of the above mistakes (probably unintentionally) quoting prior studies some now withdrawn or amended updated etc.

The bit that leaped out at me however was that they put in their own number for the CO2 required to build a diesel ICE. It was actually a bigger footprint for the ICE than a recent study calculated for Tesla LFP cells if made in the US using US electricity carbon intensity. Though the number is still lower than LFP made in China, it raises the possibilty that it may now or soon take less CO2 to make an LFP EV than to make a diesel.
 

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The 'consensus' is happy to boost CO2 for a while so long as it drops overall.

If one were to waste one's time proving that, it'd get greenwashed with 'yes, but we have to start somewhere and do it' sort of thing, which is a perfectly arguable proposition I'm not disagreeing, but that CO2 will go up before it goes down isn't really anything anyone seems bothered about.
Right. So, CO2 production may go up in the short term or may not (you have a hypothesis, but no proof). Though even if it does go up, the consensus must be that it is worth it in environmental terms due to the overall CO2 drop over time. Because if it's not worth it, that either means that no scientist has been smart enough to come up with bloke-on-internet's hypothesis, or they have but it has been suppressed by the lizard-people conspiracy - both of which we accept are implausible.

Therefore, the consensus is that overall, banning the sale of new ICE vehicles to encourage EV adoption is good for the environment.

Great! I love it when these things end in agreement :)
 

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Correct life cycle analysis shows over the life of the vehicle EV is considerably lower carbon.
Polestar's report was released in 2020, they calculated CO2 emissions over a 200,000km lifecycle as 58 tonnes for a Volve XC40 ICE and assuming EU average electricity mix, 38 tonnes for the Polestar 2 standard range, single motor, so the Polestar 2 showing a decent 35% reduction in CO2 compared to the ICE.

The most favourable comparison was assuming it was charged on Wind/renewables, bringing the EV foot-print down to 25 tonnes, so a good 57% reduction vs. the ICE. That said, even at 25 tonnes over 200,000km that is still 125 gCO2/km, or 201 gCO2/mile.

 

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Therefore, the consensus is that overall, banning the sale of new ICE vehicles to encourage EV adoption is good for the environment.

Great! I love it when these things end in agreement :)
I never said otherwise, but the short term bottle neck of materials and CO2 increases is not going to be very comfortable.

It is going to be quite interesting to see, because the balance is so fine. Consider;-

Total carbon emissions into the air for the planet is around 220Gt, of which about 10Gt is human.

Total carbon absorption back into the earth and seas is around 215Gt.

So we're adding about 5Gt/yr at the moment. Half of what we are producing is not being reabsorbed.

But it is a fine balance of a few %. If we increase our contributions, what might happen is the rate of increase could double, or something like that, but also contrary it might boost the planet's biota and the rate of absorption increases. The planet has 'greened' since 1980 and increased its foliage by about 15%.

A non-linear system that we're just going to monkey around with .. again ...

I'm just sayin' ... I don't have answers, you will note I was asking questions. Don't blame me if neurotypicals interpret 'questions' as 'statements of opinion'.
 

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I'm just sayin' ... I don't have answers, you will note I was asking questions. Don't blame me if neurotypicals interpret 'questions' as 'statements of opinion'.
Is your question mark key broken again?

‘I’m just asking questions’ 🤣

But demanding others provide you evidence and numbers.

You never fail to amuse.
 

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Is your question mark key broken again?

‘I’m just asking questions’ 🤣

But demanding others provide you evidence and numbers.

You never fail to amuse.
I wasn't the one saying that making BEVs would be possible because they'll be made from recycled BEVs. Someone else said that.

Very amusing, I agree.

I was the one saying there aren't BEVs yet to recycle from, so where are the materials going to come from?

Owning a car ... nothing to be smug about really. Getting rid of personal transport without suffering any disadvantages, then you're heading towards smug.
 

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I never said otherwise, but the short term bottle neck of materials and CO2 increases is not going to be very comfortable.

It is going to be quite interesting to see, because the balance is so fine. Consider;-

Total carbon emissions into the air for the planet is around 220Gt, of which about 10Gt is human.

Total carbon absorption back into the earth and seas is around 215Gt.

So we're adding about 5Gt/yr at the moment. Half of what we are producing is not being reabsorbed.

But it is a fine balance of a few %. If we increase our contributions, what might happen is the rate of increase could double, or something like that, but also contrary it might boost the planet's biota and the rate of absorption increases. The planet has 'greened' since 1980 and increased its foliage by about 15%.

A non-linear system that we're just going to monkey around with .. again ...

I'm just sayin' ... I don't have answers, you will note I was asking questions. Don't blame me if neurotypicals interpret 'questions' as 'statements of opinion'.
You had me at the bit where we agreed 😉
 

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Copper's an expensive metal to extract and purify. The purification is done by electrolysis. As a result it's one of the most widely recycled material. Don't forget it's used for plumbing as well as cabling. Plumbing is moving to plastic pipes and in the UK copper coins are being replaced with copper plated steel ones, this is probably happening elsewhere. Some of that copper that ends up in new BEV's will be recycled.

Rare earth magnets aren't that new, the IT industry uses vast quantities of them in hard discs, these are recycled. Some BEV manufacturers use motors that don't use them. There's a bit more drive electronics in a BEV than an ICE but the quantities are small compared to the whole electronics industry. The batteries do use significant quantities of minerals but new mines are being opened to cover the demand and over the lifetime of the car the carbon dioxide emissions will be far less than the lifetime of ICE vehicles, yes there is an up-front loading of those emissions but the average life of a car is 14 years in the UK and in the scheme of how fast carbon emissions are causing global warming most of us would accept that making something that is responsible for a lot less emissions over 14 years is a big win.

To me the bigger elephant in the room is the world's population. As a species we have to learn to procreate less and live with a short term aging population. If we halved the world's population in 100 years the effect on our emissions would be vast.
 

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As a species we have to learn to procreate less and live with a short term aging population.
Yeah, that's one of the other reason for the ICE ban. The more time people spend sat at rapid chargers, the less time they have to spend getting frisky with their other half at home... :D
 

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Yeah, that's one of the other reason for the ICE ban. The more time people spend sat at rapid chargers, the less time they have to spend getting frisky with their other half at home... :D
??

Most (non motorway) rapids I have been to are put in a quiet dark corner of an unlit car park. With nothing (much else) to do .... :unsure:

But, yeah, on this point (if you are agreed) it is a point I have raised several times across different threads but it is too unpalatable a discussion for most.

Funny how the Chinese got to that point some years ago, but it was unpalatable and a point of complaint for the rest of the world how they dealt with it.

A bachelor with a 5 litre V8 is going to do less damage to the planet than a father with a 7 seater BEV.
 

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??

Most (non motorway) rapids I have been to are put in a quiet dark corner of an unlit car park. With nothing (much else) to do .... :unsure:

But, yeah, on this point (if you are agreed) it is a point I have raised several times across different threads but it is too unpalatable a discussion for most.

Funny how the Chinese got to that point some years ago, but it was unpalatable and a point of complaint for the rest of the world how they dealt with it.

A bachelor with a 5 litre V8 is going to do less damage to the planet than a father with a 7 seater BEV.
I can just see the signs for these chargers: EV charging & dogging parking only.
Each charger to have a condom machine attached and payment added to your charge cost.
 

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??

Most (non motorway) rapids I have been to are put in a quiet dark corner of an unlit car park. With nothing (much else) to do .... :unsure:

But, yeah, on this point (if you are agreed) it is a point I have raised several times across different threads but it is too unpalatable a discussion for most.

Funny how the Chinese got to that point some years ago, but it was unpalatable and a point of complaint for the rest of the world how they dealt with it.

A bachelor with a 5 litre V8 is going to do less damage to the planet than a father with a 7 seater BEV.
Was kinda joking, but great to see this has sparked a discussion about EV charger provision for dogging sites! Maybe Zap-Map will introduce a filter so you can find them? 😁
 
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