[Jeffrey Cooper]

I've been seeing this starting to show up in my youtube feed, and it's really interesting, and I would love this to be a thread where engineers (you know whom I mean) can express their true feelings without being trolled !!

Hydrogen is the future.

but comedy (!) apart, this is really really interesting, and could in my humble opinion be the answer to any BEV type issues. I do feel that the UK government should get their dirty hands on the company quick - even though they've just given billions to battery manufacturers !!

 

[cah197]

There's already a thread about this.

Although this is just the storage mechanism. You still have to generate the H2, which is the issue,

 

[mikeselectricstuff]

That just stinks of bullshit - "Banned by the govt", nanotech, lasers, amost no info on website or anywhere else.

 

[cah197]

That just stinks of bullshit - "Banned by the govt", nanotech, lasers, amost no info on website or anywhere else.

He didn't say 'banned'. He said ITAR.

 

[Jeffrey Cooper]

I've no interest in pushing the firm, but that reaction seems a bit too quick, and possibly not even accurate - their website to me seems to be quite informative.

 

[Jeffrey Cooper]

There's already a thread about this.

Although this is just the storage mechanism. You still have to generate the H2, which is the issue,

Look at this - I've "unignored" you just to see; I didn't know there was another thread sorry, so I guess this one just needs to die away.

 

[Edd Beesley]

Interesting idea as a range extender. 100kg of discs is ~300 miles of range. Plus a fuel cell of course. but it could be a small (~30kw?) one when used as a RE. Annoying to swap out, but if your vehicle also has a 100 mile battery you charge at home/supermarket/gym/whatever it would be a long time before your burned through all the discs, and if they were genuinely modular (although HOW you do that safely in an automotive environment I have no idea) you could just swap a hand luggable amount every now and then.


OF COURSE, as a PHEV design, it will be killed completely by small incremental improvements in batteries. Once a Fiesta can (from a volume and weight perspective, ignore cost) have a 1,000 mile battery pack, all this stuff is pointless guff.

 

[donald]

Look at this - I've "unignored" you just to see; I didn't know there was another thread sorry, so I guess this one just needs to die away.

I'll read the thread later there might be something specific in it to comment.

I've done quite a post on hydrogen before getting right into the problems and opportunities. I'll find a link.

To be fair there are more of the former than the latter, else it'd be a 'thing' by now, but I don't regard hydrogen as a 'useless' energy vector, it's time we take a look at all potential solutions.

If we're truly in a global emergency, if you have a fire engine and it hasn't got an MoT and it might break down on the way to the fire, what do you do? Let's not bother, it's not a perfect solution yet ... do you see what I mean?

 

[Edd Beesley]

I'll read the thread later there might be something specific in it to comment.

I've done quite a post on hydrogen before getting right into the problems and opportunities. I'll find a link.

To be fair there are more of the former than the latter, else it'd be a 'thing' by now, but I don't regard hydrogen as a 'useless' energy vector, it's time we take a look at all potential solutions.

If we're truly in a global emergency, if you have a fire engine and it hasn't got an MoT and it might break down on the way to the fire, what do you do? Let's not bother, it's not a perfect solution yet ... do you see what I mean?

Yes, but we are in a world where convincing people that not using the "good enough for now" battery cars and instead waiting for the "just round the corner" hydrogen cars will secure billions of dollars into the fossil fuel industry pockets, both now for petrol/diesel, and also for life if we do switch to "blue" hydrogen.

 

[Jeffrey Cooper]

From what I've seen, you just attach these discs to a toyota fuel cell, and bam, you've got the perfect eco friendly car that you can refuel quickly, safely and cheaply - what's not to like ?

 

[mikeselectricstuff]

From what I've seen, you just attach these discs to a toyota fuel cell, and bam, you've got the perfect eco friendly car that you can refuel quickly, safely and cheaply - what's not to like ?

It's still way less efficient than BEV, and can't charge at home.

 

[richardglover]

It is fascinating as Alex says in the video but I am not sure all the major legacy auto makers have accepted that electric motors should be the only thing turning our wheels yet let alone taking on board the level of complexity this is putting forward.
The thing about the transition to us all driving electric one day is, step 1, electric motors turn the wheels, step 2 how big are you going to make the battery, then step 3 is all about how that battery is filled. And it is logical (to me anyway) that once you have accepted steps 1 & 2 and all new vehicles are EVs the race is on to give each new model a greater battery capacity than your competitors comparable vehicles regardless of how it is filled. Why because wherever we live we expect electricity to be on tap.
My support of EVs with petrol range extenders is simply because we already have extensive refuelling infrastructures around the world to support the transition, we don't need other infrastructures to help the transition which ultimately will lead us to just BEVs and on tap electrons.

 

[Xinix]

Exactly: one of the arguments of the detractors of BEV is: 'where do we get all the electricity from? The network is going to collapse! We need more nucelar'. At the same time nobody seems to blink an eye if we need to triple the RE sources in order to accommodate for all the hydrogen we are going to need in our planes, trains and automobiles.

Hydrogen has some niche applications: planes, cargo ships (maybe) and very maybe as one of multiple RE storage media. For cars it's stoopid.

 

[badmanwimmaculatelips]

Warning; what follows are the ramblings of a non-engineer, though someone with enough knowledge to be dangerous but not enough self awareness to grasp this. Also partial to yoga.

What are the rate-limiting factors for this ? Simplicity, safety, and efficiency.
Simplicity; got some nice promo film which shows some shiny machines in the lab, with some a very plausible patter on using semiconductor foundry approaches to store hydrogen, and release it with light.
Safety; it's not as tricky as having a high pressure and flammable gas, that tends to leak out as it's such a wee molecule.
Efficiency; this is where i'm wondering. Putting it on the film must take some energy, as well as getting it off again - but they don't seem to describe this clearly in the youtube clip. Seems to be a bit of an omission ? If there's an inherently high energy cost of the storage system, it'll be a limitation if rolled out at global scale (though that didn't stop the inefficient ICE succeeding...but efficiency is where the current competition is at)

So, energy density...

From their website;

This is good for comparison versus other forms of Hydrogen storage, but it doesn't tell me how it stacks up versus a Li ion battery. Luckily, someone on this forum might know the answer, and perhaps compare with fossil fule.

I don't get how their figures in the youtube clip relate to the numbers above ? Energy density of 8.7kWh/kg seems a bit low but adequate ? At 4 miles per kWh that'd be around 32 miles. A kilo of petrol (roughly a litre ? should've listened in chemistry class...) gets you 20-50 miles (?).

IMO, hydrogen has a lot of potential particularly as it might be easier to ship it from distant wind or solar generation than it's currently possible to move electricity. Whether it's wise or feasible to put it in a car is another matter.

 

[Jeffrey Cooper]

Well I have to say I'm shocked by all the negativity about this - It needs a little battery, the hydrogen is stored in solid state, the Fuel cells are already available and efficient, and the production of hydrogen is apparently, according to BMW, reasonably easy and ecologically sound if you tap all the wasted h, and then use over-supply of renewables to produce it - and then all we need to do is get it to the factories producing these hydrogen discs which can then be posted to your home for at-home charging. How anyone can shout about the benefits of battery over fossil, but then say that this idea is just not sound is beyond me - come on @donald, get investigating quick !!

PS just found this document - seems interesting.

https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/03/f9/thomas_fcev_vs_battery_evs.pdf

 

[Edd Beesley]

Pre covid I drove about 12k miles per year. I'd need to swap out and replace all these (100kg worth of) discs 40 times per year, every 9 days. Or, just plug the car in and charge from solar, or my own batteries, or the grid.

And after I put the 100kg of new discs in the empty (still heavy!!) ones go where? in the bin? or the amazon man takes them back with him? and, how much do these discs cost? less than plugging in...?

 

[Jeffrey Cooper]

Ok, I get that you're not a fan - but why the hate, it's just another possibility ?

 

[Xinix]

and then use over-supply of renewables to produce it -

https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/03/f9/thomas_fcev_vs_battery_evs.pdf

That's exactly where it falls flat. Last time I checked renewables are still only 10-50 percent of the energy mix depending on which country you look at. So massively implementing hydrogen dependencies in transport and industry will only lead to an exponentially higher demand for FF in order to make all the hydrogen. It Just Doesn't Make Sense.

Once we get to overcapacity in RE then we can start talking about this. Until then, it's exactly what Big Oil needs.

 

[Zarni]

For the average car, nope, the swapping stuff in and out is far too much of a faff compared to what already exists.

Trucks, maybe. Where the mass of the system allows for a larger payload so that might work.
Not sure about planes as there isn't exactly a lot of free space on them and increasing the body to accommodate them, or using the underslung pod as their little image showed is going to have an adverse effect on efficiency. That could just come down cost at the end of the day.

The recycling just seems a bit off to me. Something doesn't sound right to make it a fully viable business. OK, so it is great that it can be fully recycled but the energy loss from cradle to grave must be significant. At that point you have to wonder what scale this would actually work.


I'm still think hydrogen has a place but I have to wonder if just grid levelling is as far as it gets.

 

[Jeffrey Cooper]

That's exactly where it falls flat. Last time I checked renewables are still only 10-50 percent of the energy mix depending on which country you look at.

so presumably you're not a fan of EVs then, since they get their leccy from this same source of dirty supply ?