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It depends if the rapid chargers are in convenient places to stop and you are much more likely to come accross a rapid not working than a fuel station not working, however with the new Ecotricity pricing then there is no real financial penalty for stopping more often for shorter periods of time, so less need to max the battery when stopped.
When travelling along motorways there will not be much time penatly for going by EV, however if crossing some parts of the UK you may need to go quite a bit out of your way to get a charge, this is where the time penalty really does start to build up.
 

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Have you only allowed an actual 20 minutes for the stop? By the time you have pulled off the motorway, found the charger, plugged in etc I would have thought it's double that.

My experience of charging on trips is very limited but when I've worked it out I've allowed 45 mins to an hour. We are going for a second EV, have an egolf on order so slower charging than the Ioniq but slightly faster delivery time for the initial car well maybe.
I can't remember the exact numbers I came up with but on anything over 250 miles I allowed at least an hour and a half for charging, possibly 2 hours especially if getting up to 300 mile trips. Less than 200 miles and one charge I allowed an hour.
Anything over 3-350 miles, don't use an egolf or allow for an overnight stop.
 

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I think it's also worth pointing out that not only is the Leaf is really, really bad on the motorway but the Tekna (17 inch wheels + wider tyres) is dire in the wet. I think your previous blog post may have underestimated just how bad it can be.

My Gen2 Leaf Tekna, at 1.5 years old, nearly stranded me when I had an 80 mile round trip to do which I carried out driving at 45mph behind a lorry. Driven at 70mph in the wet it averaged under 3 miles per kWh - a 110 mile trip would require two charging stops to complete; a regular 135 mile jaunt required two stops and a destination charger.

As @Woodulike points out, 20 minutes for a stop is also very optimistic. I don't have the logs to hand, but I had a data logger fitted which tracked my trips. My stops were definitely closer to an hour - slowing down to enter the services; trailing round to find the chargepoints; waiting for one to become available/clambering around connecting cables/fighting the UI to start a charge; faffing around to disconnect all took time.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
All valid points. I plan to actually do this, at least with the Ioniq - so will update with real data! Once you're used to the wierdness of current EcoT chargers you can get charging pretty quickly; but yes, if you're unlucky time can be wasted easily. If you're used to the Leaf24 charging rates, as I was, the Ioniq seems very very fast, even on current DBT rapid-ish chargers at a relatively low 41kW!
 

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I think you're taking ideal and real numbers then confusing them.
In theory a diesel can do it in 4.3 hours which isn't even over tacho regulation driving time so no stops required.
In theory it could also do 94mpg which works out to about £16.50 of diesel.

The reality is that any decent diesel will top 60mpg at a steady 70mph quite easily.
It would still take 4.3 hours which would leave around 10 minutes spare before even going into tacho OT, let alone unregulated driving hours.
It would use around £25 of fuel.
All largely unaffected by climate conditions.

I'm not sure about the Ioniq but the Leaf at a genuine 70mph (not it's pathological speedo's idea of 70mph) isn't going to get 3.8mi/kWh - far from it. You would be very lucky to see over 3 in ideal conditions and even if there were chargers exactly where it's range ran out it would be at least a 45min stop each time with the reduced range that then entails.
When you take reality into account there are going to be a few forced stops or big detours involved almost anywhere in the country.
If you start with a full battery you also have only 36kWh usable - around 100 miles if you're kind with the heater/ac.
100m around 1.5hrs.
After the first stop there would be around 28 or around 80 miles (unless you want the stop to be well over an hour) and you would have to pay EH twice to get to that 28 since even that would take more than the half hour it should.
Still 100mi, 2.25hrs.
Next stop around 180mi at around 3.5hrs. Drop another 3/4hr in for that charge so 180mi at 3.75hrs.
Then there would be another stop at around 260 miles at 5hrs. Leave at 5.75hrs.
Arrive at just under 6 hours - again that's presuming perfectly placed chargers and no charger issues.


In reality it would need another charge on most routes thanks to charger locations meaning detours and far more miles to cover.
There is also a good chance of an issue with charging (ice'd, out, in use, etc).
So yes if you plan the route to perfection and it all goes well you may get there an hour and a half behind the diesel while driving a car that's almost certainly much more money than the equivalent diesel in the first place.

These trips are not what the Leaf was ever aimed at and the joke of an infrastructure hamstrings almost every ev when you want to do distance.

With 100kW+ charging and a massive rollout of chargers in realistic places that will all change but right here and now you would have to be a bit S+M to choose the Leaf over the diesel for that trip.
 

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Did you hear about the S+M enthusiast who liked to get up at 1am for a cold shower? He didn't.

The truth of the matter is that while you can cover huge distances in any EV, today's cars remain a far more involved - read more fraught - experience compared to any equivalent ICE doing the same trip. Few people want fraught. Few people want to think about anything beyond what Waze suggests is the quickest route. They want to set off and just get there. Which is one of many reasons ICE remains the choice of almost everyone.

The 520d I borrowed over xmas did 800 miles nonstop without refuelling. It's hard to argue against the sort of stress free approach to travel that affords.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
The classic Leaf is certainly not an ideal motorway car, however I have measured 3.25 mi/kWh at a GPS 70mph (see my blog).
The point of this blog was just to compare performance of the Ioniq Vs the Leaf40 using my best guess as to the efficiency of the new car.

Yes, any real journey has to take account of the location of chargers, but on, say, an M5/M6 trip up the UK there's lots of them on the motorway. when you have a minimum 120 mile range you can accept the odd problem with chargers down too. Indeed when I brought the Ioniq home we had a charger error, then a motorway closed, and made it to the next EcoT charger.

I've had 27 years of making diesel smoke so felt I really should give it up!
 

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The only creditable figures are the forum reports herewith of people that have actually done 300 miles in their EVs.

Typical average speed seems to be a fairly miserable 30 to 35mph average overall for long distances, while you would have had a bad time of it if you were to get less than 55-ish mph in an ICE.

All of my recent diesels have covered a full 800 miles on a tank, usually more in fact. My wife was taken aback when we drove abroad in our wheelchair access diesel van this summer and I happened to mention that I was planning to stop for fuel once we got into Nuremberg (the further side of Germany) .. it does 40mpg and has an 85 litre tank. As @People's Front of Judea hints at, you've really got to enjoy planning to do that sort of trip in an EV. In an ICE you just get in and drive. You save 10 minutes at the start of your journey before you even get going by not having to look at a map and google/etc to figure out your stops!

EVs have their place and we love 'em for it. But let's not get carried away...
 

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In a 200 mile car that does say 150 genuine motorway miles with some charge left then it's adding on one charge period. I'd guess it would be 45 minutes. So best case is diesel plus an hour to allow for any charging delay.

On a normal EV then the only one around now is the Zoe. Can one of those do 150 miles in one go? Pick a rapid charge one then it will charge at 43kWh. I'd bet you'd need two stops anyway as they won't be quite in the right place and it's guaranteed range would be nibbled away at the wrong moment too.

There's always the absolute speed and charging time trade off. I'd think with a much faster charging car it would be quicker to cane it and stop more often than bimble along and stretch a leg to have a shorter charge time overall.
 

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In a 200 mile car that does say 150 genuine motorway miles with some charge left then it's adding on one charge period. I'd guess it would be 45 minutes. So best case is diesel plus an hour to allow for any charging delay.

On a normal EV then the only one around now is the Zoe. Can one of those do 150 miles in one go? Pick a rapid charge one then it will charge at 43kWh. I'd bet you'd need two stops anyway as they won't be quite in the right place and it's guaranteed range would be nibbled away at the wrong moment too.

There's always the absolute speed and charging time trade off. I'd think with a much faster charging car it would be quicker to cane it and stop more often than bimble along and stretch a leg to have a shorter charge time overall.
The problem with this lies outside the window. I just looked out to see a cold, wet world.
Taking ideals in the ev doesn't look too bad but I would wager (from experience) that a Leaf will be knocking around 2-2.5mi/kWh in this if you're very nice to it. I would also wager the vast majority of Leafs sitting outside people's houses won't have 100% charge. There will be some but a lot will be at 80% after the usual overnight and some will be at whatever they were left at for the people who don't charge everyday.

The only realistic 200mile non Tesla we get is the Zoe. In this weather and starting with 80% charge at 70mph I would expect to have to look for a charger between 80 and 100 miles in. That allows a decent amount for any detours to chargers and a bit left for back up because I learnt my lesson about running them right to the end of their range a long time ago.

With most diesels it's a case of go outside, start car, wait a few minutes for demisting then go anywhere you like at any legal speed you like and it will do 60+mpg as long as you're not driving it like a nit regardless if you have the heater on max or if you have 5 people in there or whatever.

When taking the ev's side to it people seem to always slap on the rose coloured glasses then double it.
The reality is a very poor charging network when it's even available and cars which behave as you would expect - they are very, very efficient so they have a lot more to lose when things aren't ideal.
That really is the problem.
Things are almost never ideal.
 

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Just completed the trip from West Cork, Ireland to Devon in our 30kw Leaf. Last leg from Fishguard to Exeter (220 miles) took us 5 hours as opposed to 3.5hrs in an ICE vehicle. The 3.5hrs is based on solid driving, which given my bladder these days is an impossibility. So my reckoning is that it probably "cost" us an additional 30-40 minutes or so. A very small inconvenience in my opinion. In fact aside from a little initial battery temp anxiety from using consecutive rapids, the whole 10 days travelling to and from Ireland and then around it fairly extensively was an absolute joy, and once we reached Ireland, completely free.
 

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Real numbers for Leaf 24 (3 years old):

Temperature: 3-10 degrees
Weather: Wet
Traffic/Roadworks: Some 50 zones
Distance: 275 miles (220 motorway, 40 A road, 15 local)

8h15m - Leaf 24
5h - Diesel Berlingo

The charging was not optimal due to charger locations. Charged to 89% in 45 minutes 3 times plus a short extra charge at the end. This was needed as chargers were not always in the best locations.
 

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Looking at my logs I managed over two years an average of 3.75 Miles per kWh at an average speed of 25mph

My fastest drive was an average of 59.08 mph and used 3.29 Miles per kWh.
The average of all my >50mph drives works out at 3.43 Miles per kWh

Interestingly my best Wh per mile I have logged over a decent distance was 51 miles at 183Wh/Mile (used 9.35 kWh), in the height of summer. All motorway. 73 degrees fahrenheit.

My worst wH per mile (over a distance) was 28.06 miles at 352wH/mile (total of 9.89 kWh) - in September. A-Roads. (54 degrees fahrenheit).

I have a log of a 385 mile round trip:

I used 87kWh of electricity at an average speed of 31.7 mph. Motorway and A Roads. Temperature 61 to 77 fahrenheit. 8 Charging stops (including a destination charge).

The best case was the return journey where I wanted to get home and obviously didn't have to worry about saving charge on the last leg:

Total Travel time of 6 hours to do 188 miles at an average of 40mph using 43kWh of electricity at 71-77 fahrenheit. Just two charging stops as they were perfectly placed.
 

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The reality is that any decent diesel will top 60mpg at a steady 70mph quite easily.
It would still take 4.3 hours which would leave around 10 minutes spare before even going into tacho OT, let alone unregulated driving hours.
It would use around £25 of fuel.
All largely unaffected by climate conditions.
VW did not make decent diesels.
Diesel fuel efficiency is also temperature dependent.
Far more pollution from ICE.
With a decent breezy offshore turbines give great power.

I just prefer the slower approach now.
 

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A current Tesla would be better than a diesel I think. The long range model 3 would not even need to stop. That is whenever it arrives in the UK :)

Richard
 

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Looking at my logs I managed over two years an average of 3.75 Miles per kWh at an average speed of 25mph

My fastest drive was an average of 59.08 mph and used 3.29 Miles per kWh.
The average of all my >50mph drives works out at 3.43 Miles per kWh

Interestingly my best Wh per mile I have logged over a decent distance was 51 miles at 183Wh/Mile (used 9.35 kWh), in the height of summer. All motorway. 73 degrees fahrenheit.

My worst wH per mile (over a distance) was 28.06 miles at 352wH/mile (total of 9.89 kWh) - in September. A-Roads. (54 degrees fahrenheit).

I have a log of a 385 mile round trip:

I used 87kWh of electricity at an average speed of 31.7 mph. Motorway and A Roads. Temperature 61 to 77 fahrenheit. 8 Charging stops (including a destination charge).

The best case was the return journey where I wanted to get home and obviously didn't have to worry about saving charge on the last leg:

Total Travel time of 6 hours to do 188 miles at an average of 40mph using 43kWh of electricity at 71-77 fahrenheit. Just two charging stops as they were perfectly placed.
I assume you drive a black Leaf?
How do you get 51 miles out of 9.35kWh at 70?
I've only had my leaf since the summer but thought I was doing well to 75-80 miles from a full battery, so using about 20kWh and not all at 70.
 

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Ioniq can achieve around 114 miles in 2 degree weather in the rain at 70mph using active cruise.
In summer this will be more like 132miles, so 300 mile trip with current battery size always means 2 rapid charge stops giving you a theoretical time of 4hrs 18 driving time plus 90 mins charging on Ecotricity CCS charger.

If it was a 200 mile trip you could do it in around 3hrs 30, a bit tiny bit less in summer to reflect the shorter charge time.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Thanks all, I've updated the blog to reflect real charging speeds today, and expected faster ones
As long as you have a charger in the right place, your average speed is always higher by driving faster. Except where slowing down to get some extra miles to make it without a stop.
I'm now looking at comparisons of average speeds with cruising speed, as this is the clearest way to express the results.
 
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