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So if they are pumping water uphill, are there freshwater lower reservoirs available or are the plans to mix seawater with freshwater to create brackish upper lochs or whatever is the Norwegian name?
 

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Oh sorry we just use the gas storage we have now.
If we don't need gas storage now... We don't need gas storage.
We don't need significant gas storage now because our gas grid works on a JiT system with a continuous stream of LNG tankers coming to the UK. Which is why substantial amounts of UK storage has closed and we have quite limited reserve (few days at best). In a closed UK renewables model we'd have to massively expand our storage for seasonal variations.
 

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Discussion Starter #87
No I'm suggesting a solution that negates your entire question.
I think you mean negates the whole thread.

You regard the OP question as one of the sorts of questions that are just wrong to ask?
 

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So if they are pumping water uphill, are there freshwater lower reservoirs available or are the plans to mix seawater with freshwater to create brackish upper lochs or whatever is the Norwegian name?
There is only one hydro site in Norway that has fresh water lakes above and below the hydro power station. They will pump back there, but not at any other hydro sites. Conservation of hydro power will be by using UK wind surplus. But it works the other way too - if UK wind power is to low to meet demand then the UK can buy hydro power from Norway.

No salt water fiord back pumping into a fresh water lake.. Think of the environmental impact. A total no-no.
 

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I think you mean negates the whole thread.

You regard the OP question as one of the sorts of questions that are just wrong to ask?
In a closed UK renewables model we'd have to massively expand our storage for seasonal variations.
Guess not.
Although I guess gas storage wouldn't be too hard to build... Especially if we are building 15000 green gas Mills. You would prob have some sort off storage as anyway. Just double it for winter.
 

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Discussion Starter #90
Guess not.
Although I guess gas storage wouldn't be too hard to build... Especially if we are building 15000 green gas Mills. You would prob have some sort off storage as anyway. Just double it for winter.
I think you might have missed my point in my last post.

What's gas storage got to do with 100% renewables?

I am not saying not to look at ''gas' as a low carbon option for intermittent, I am saying it is not relevant to a question about running 100% renewables. It is an answer to a different question.

Maybe you've got your threads mixed up, there is another one about something similar, currently.
 

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I think you might have missed my point in my last post.

What's gas storage got to do with 100% renewables?

I am not saying not to look at ''gas' as a low carbon option for intermittent, I am saying it is not relevant to a question about running 100% renewables. It is an answer to a different question.

Maybe you've got your threads mixed up, there is another one about something similar, currently.
We don't need to build natural gas storage. It is already stored in the ground. We just pump more or less as required and buffer store it in the gas distribution network by raising or lowering the pressure.

One suggestion is that natural gas being a non-renewable resource (unless you are prepared to wait a very long time) is only used as a last resort when renewable energy cannot meet demand. Thus gas storage meaning 'leave it in the ground' can be part of the storage capacity to cover shortfall in renewable generation.

However the economics of gas powered electric generation becomes fraught if they are only put on-line as a last resort to meet energy demand during periods of peak load. These would be, in the UK, windless cold spells if domestic heating is converted from gas to heat pumps.
 

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Discussion Starter #92
We don't need to build natural gas storage. It is already stored in the ground. We just pump more or less as required and buffer store it in the gas distribution network by raising or lowering the pressure.

One suggestion is that natural gas being a non-renewable resource (unless you are prepared to wait a very long time) is only used as a last resort when renewable energy cannot meet demand. Thus gas storage meaning 'leave it in the ground' can be part of the storage capacity to cover shortfall in renewable generation.

However the economics of gas powered electric generation becomes fraught if they are only put on-line as a last resort to meet energy demand during periods of peak load. These would be, in the UK, windless cold spells if domestic heating is converted from gas to heat pumps.
Still the answer to a different question.

If people want to make the point "let's use GAS" then they have moved themselves to a different question to "what do we do to achieve 100% renewables".

The answer to "how do we achieve 100% renewables" cannot possibly be "well, we just don't quite do that, just trust me, it'll be OK, we'll burn just a little bit of FF".

It'd be a bit like saying "How do we achieve 100% safe nuclear fission" with the answer "well, we just clean up the occasional mess, it's pretty close to 100% safe".

Besides, we have 40GW of installed gas power at the moment, and we need 150GW.

Who is going to propose building 3 times as many gas stations, who pays for them, and where do they go?
 

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Still the answer to a different question.

If people want to make the point "let's use GAS" then they have moved themselves to a different question to "what do we do to achieve 100% renewables".

The answer to "how do we achieve 100% renewables" cannot possibly be "well, we just don't quite do that, just trust me, it'll be OK, we'll burn just a little bit of FF".

It'd be a bit like saying "How do we achieve 100% safe nuclear fission" with the answer "well, we just clean up the occasional mess, it's pretty close to 100% safe".

Besides, we have 40GW of installed gas power at the moment, and we need 150GW.

Who is going to propose building 3 times as many gas stations, who pays for them, and where do they go?
Natural gas is a renewable - it is just over a longer timescale. :)
 

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Discussion Starter #95
When it's renewable gas.... Guess you didn't even bother reading the article.
Show me this 1TWh storage for renewable gas that we have now, and the route to 4x number of gas generators.

Can we please stick to reality?
 

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When it's renewable gas.... Guess you didn't even bother reading the article.
How are we producing all this renewable gas? Just how many anaerobic digesters, human waste and animal waste facilities do we need? How can the demand for feedstock be met if we continue to reduce the amount of waste we produce? (Like reduced animal farming, and food waste).
 
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