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Proximity of excess renewable gen, more so in the future than now
 

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But renewable energy is a very, very bad way to make hydrogen. All the big companies want to make it from natural gas.
One may be true, the other certainly isn't
 

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Yes, but my very strongly held belief is that there is a lot of deliberate hand-waving going on at this stage about making hydrogen from renewables to greenwash it, but this is not a sane use of renewable energy (see image) and companies like BP, Exxon, Shell and Air Products will happily sell you the plant to make hydrogen from natural gas as that is the only way that really makes sense and they really want you to buy their gas.

hydrogen.jpg
 

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Presumably if the oil lobby managed to buy off convince OLEV departments that hydrogen needs tax payer support on a massive scale then some manufacturers will start building the vehicles. They would be silly not benefit from the not insignificant purchase grants being made available which they get to pocket and so their incentive is to maximise the farming of subsidies (max 25% or £5000?) and the selling price will reflect that again causing 1. another artificial price rise of £5000 above what would have been asked in a free market and 2. an artificial peg on list price reductions for volume even if it means limiting their own market long term for short term gain. Flawed Lunacy but that's how government thinks it should encourage the uptake of EVs! If only our politicians weren't in the pockets of the highest bidder and didn't do everything to maximise their own political capital instead of seeking to maximise good outcomes for the benefit of the public through properly thought through public expenditure. The effects on the ground could have been so much better.

I judge their "ability" by overseas comparison. Norway, 34 times more successful than us at encouraging EVs, Netherlands, 10 times more successful!
All this Britain leading the world is just B.S. Orwellian Newsspeak!
 

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Yes, but my very strongly held belief is that there is a lot of deliberate hand-waving going on at this stage about making hydrogen from renewables to greenwash it, but this is not a sane use of renewable energy (see image) and companies like BP, Exxon, Shell and Air Products will happily sell you the plant to make hydrogen from natural gas as that is the only way that really makes sense and they really want you to buy their gas.

View attachment 2295
I knew this slide would surface on this thread - all I had to do was tease it out:)

It is somewhat dangerous, in that while completely accurate, it doesn't address a critical issue I.e. A kWh of Electricity and a kWh of Hydrogen are not fungible - that is to say they are not fully interchangeable. What's needed to make them interchangeable is a storage solution for electricity and the storage mechanism for Hydrogen, that changes two things:

1. The relative cost per kWh of the *stored* vector
2. The "well to tank" efficiency taking into account the storage medium

For (1) if the cost of the electricity storage medium e.g. Batteries, at either the macro or micro level, is way in excess of the cost of a hydrogen network (and people are looking at taking compression out of the equation, remember) then that is a situation worthy of analysis. I don't know the answer to that, nor have I seen one. People have beliefs - that isn't the same as running the numbers.

(2) May be a factor if the sunk kWh in the creation of the storage medium is much higher for batteries as it is for hydrogen. We EVers always talk about "well to wheel" and how much electricity there is in refining liquid fuels - I am not sure why an illustration at how *bad* hydrogen is is so readily accepted while missing it out. It may make it worse still, it may make it better. Again, not seen an answer.

Also consider that low-carbon Hydrogen may be a suitable fuel in others areas. Having a small local bottle of hydrogen may be the answer to poor Heat Pump performance that coldest week of the year in the UK. Also, current Natural Gas applicants are thought to be able to take about 10% of hydrogen down the pipe without modification.

I don't think Hydrogen is a prime motive power answer, but on a marginal basis (some other use drives it's development and motive power comes along as a result) I wouldn't bet against it's long term viability right now with the lack of current information.

As for "Big Oil" - I sit in a lot of meetings, sure there is some positioning, but I don't see Machieavelli at work. Mind you, I'm not that much of a cheese myself ;)
 
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For (1) if the cost of the electricity storage medium e.g. Batteries, at either the macro or micro level, is way in excess of the cost of a hydrogen network (and people are looking at taking compression out of the equation, remember) then that is a situation worthy of analysis. I don't know the answer to that, nor have I seen one. People have beliefs - that isn't the same as running the numbers.
I would be very interested to know what method you think is viable for "taking compression out of the equation" as all the ones I have seen end up being ridiculously more complicated and inefficient. The best candidate I have seen so far is to convert the hydrogen into something like methanol for transportation and storage, then back when you need the hydrogen.
 

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Thes guys are very credible and their tech seems viable - again, not seen any associated numbers. Pellets exist, though. Held'em.

http://cellaenergy.com/our-materials/
The last paragraph on their webpage is interesting: "Cella’s material contains a lot of energy which needs to be put back into it each time it is recycled"

So it seems to be a highly inefficient and wasteful process.
 

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The last paragraph on their webpage is interesting: "Cella’s material contains a lot of energy which needs to be put back into it each time it is recycled"

So it seems to be a highly inefficient and wasteful process.
I think they're talking about the Hydrogen itself, aren't they?
 

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No, I think it's the storage medium they are talking about.
Yes, from what I can tell they produce a material that is then "loaded" with hydrogen (by them at their facility) you buy pellets of this material which are delivered by lorry and when you want hydrogen you heat the pellets (more energy in!) and collect and use the liberated hydrogen. You will need a system to feed fresh pellets into the "hot zone" and collect the spent ones. The spent pellets are then loaded onto a lorry and sent back to Cella where they are reprocessed chemically back to a form where they can load more hydrogen into them.

Or you could simply plug your EV into any 13A socket!
 

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And wait 8 hours, or 30 minutes (*) if you are lucky.

The promise of pellets that can be used to carry energy as conveniently as petrol sounds pretty good as a sensible alternative to rapid charging.

(*) Your charge time may vary.
With that I will retire from this thread - It seems that some here don't really want EVs.
 
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