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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I currently drive a Golf GTE, and this is the year I an planning to go fully electric. I was looking at an ID 3 Family, but was waiting for an opportunity for a test drive before ordering, but a 3£k increase in price pushed that out of my budget, and now I am having a rethink about all those nice to have, but can easilly live without things I will not have if I go for the Life spec. I think the only things it does not have that the GTE has is keyless entry and full matrix-leds and I am pretty sure I dont really need those.

One must have for any EV I buy is a hitch for my bike carrier, which for my budget means a ID3 or a Skoda Enyaq but that is a bigger car than I want, so on current pricing its a ID3 Life or stick with the GTE.

I just priced up a Life which came in at over £7k cheaper, and if I add the heat pump I am still going to be spending £6k less than I was. I am now highly tempted just to do it, before VW start tweeking prices to temp me into spending lots on money on gizmos I dont need.
 

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They've done the same for me... but effectively putting an ID.3 on hold! I'm now thinking I should postpone until my Ibiza comes to the end of its lease, rather than trading in early.
 

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Quite right too. Tax revenue shouldn’t be used to ‘up trinket’ a move to EV. The change is well targeted I think.
 

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To be honest they should just scrap the grant. It has been shown as soon as grants are offered up in any market (Which are paid for by all tax payers) the companies involve just up their prices to swallow the grant so it becomes an artificially bloated market with everything overpriced. Similar happened with solar panels. No grants or very few or now reduced and the price of solar panels has dropped+++. The same will happen with EVs. I don't think there is any secret that when manufacturers price up their new offerings, eg they will sell their new car at £35K. They then ask what the grant is (as offered in any country) -eg- £3k and lo and behold they increase the price of the new car by the same amount. Car now priced at £38k!
Similar issue with the home installed chargers. They are mostly £500-£1000 but £500 of that is grant I think or was when I has mine installed. If the grant was ended they would drop in price to £100 to £150 almost immediately- ie nearer their true cost.
The loss of grant for EVs costing £35+ will kill the market dead. Or almost. And the car market as a whole is already almost dead this past year. People were "just about" prepared to pay £35-£37k for a Niro or Kona but now both are £40k+ or so. No chance. Unless they start to discount their cars dramatically which I think they will- eventually. Batteries are cheap and EVs cheaper to produce then ICE cars with their multitude of parts required (mainly the engine).
And yes I agree that these grants for EVs have mostly been used by those far more well off to begin with,(and most likely did not need a grant) which is a farcical situation. EVs will really benefit those that up to now could not afford to buy a car in the first place so it is a shame they are still too expensive. And the manufacturers would like to keep it that way so they can shift or move on all their ICE dinosaurs before the inevitable happens.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Skoda's pricing model looks more attractive now with its pick and mix options it is much easier to get what you want without losing the grant, Also much easier to get what you want without having to pay for a load of other features you are not bothered about.
 

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It has been shown as soon as grants are offered up in any market (Which are paid for by all tax payers) the companies involve just up their prices to swallow the grant so it becomes an artificially bloated market with everything overpriced.
Incorrect. A good illustration of this is the Dacia Spring electric in the UK and Germany:

UK RRP = £14,500
UK Grant = £2,500
Manufacturer revenue = £17,000

DE RRP: £9,500 (€11,000)
DE Grant = £7,750 (€9,000)
Manufacturer revenue = £17,250

Similar happened with solar panels.
Also incorrect.

Solar panel prices reduce due to the learning effect. Not because some governments have reduced grants. See: Experience curve effects - Wikipedia
 

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VW ID.3 1st Edition & Tesla M3 LR
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Incorrect. A good illustration of this is the Dacia Spring electric in the UK and Germany:

UK RRP = £14,500
UK Grant = £2,500
Manufacturer revenue = £17,000

DE RRP: £9,500 (€11,000)
DE Grant = £7,750 (€9,000)
Manufacturer revenue = £17,250
I’m not sure that proves anything?

From your example, the recommended retail price (RRP) isn’t what’s quoted, you’re really arguing that the RRP is around £17k, give or take.

If that were true, then in that example (where the car isn’t even marketed in the UK) it would indeed suggest the grant doesn’t just get added on top of ‘the price’.

But it’s a made up set of figures (for the UK), is there an example of something available all over Europe?
 

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If I were in car manufacturing, given the lead times in designing, developing and bringing to market an EV, I don’t see how you could realistically know what the tax or grant regimes in place across the various countries you sell into would be when you came to launch.

The actual cost to build a car is usually a closely guarded commercial secret, so we have no way of knowing what the price is or what’s put on top. This is further complicated when many manufacturers sel into official importers in each market, and leave them to navigate the local tax and grant regimes.

I think it would be naive to think that in some markets the grant isn’t just being used to bring an inflated price back down to merely expensive.

On balance I’d prefer it if they weren’t in place and any money went instead into improving the grid and to provide proper public changing infrastructure.
 

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Don’t know. I was getting the info from www.ev-database.uk who I’ve found to be reliable.

It looks like a great city car. But the rapid charging is too slow for me.
I'm not sure it's that reliable given that they've not launched the car in the UK.
It's probably just currency conversion on the respective models based on the EU prices.
 

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I'm not sure it's that reliable given that they've not launched the car in the UK.
It's probably just currency conversion on the respective models based on the EU prices.
Fair enough. Not sure how they arrived at the UK figures. Will see if I can find a similar example based on cars available to purchase when I have time to do some more research.
 

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To be honest they should just scrap the grant. It has been shown as soon as grants are offered up in any market (Which are paid for by all tax payers) the companies involve just up their prices to swallow the grant so it becomes an artificially bloated market with everything overpriced
Ummm do you have any evidence of this? Utter rubbish. The grant doesn’t go to the manufacturer. The customer is invoiced at a price, from which the dealer deducts the grant. The grant is paid to the dealer.

So maybe it’s arguable that the manufacturer has added a few quid over and above what they could have done, but the reality is BEV vehicles cost significantly more to make at the moment than ICE.

I was once told by a guy at Dagenham Ford that a 2.0 petrol engine costs around £300 to make (cost of running the plant per year / number of engines made) - this was many years ago but I doubt it’s more than doubled, gearboxes are also not that dear to make.

Batteries however are still dear - that will change eventually, but at the moment it’s the case. I suspect most of the difference in cost of BEV at the moment is battery cost.

Also, It will actually cost the government MORE money to reduce the grant - I posted this last night on another thread...

I spoke to a guy at Kia today. All the orders they have in the bag are ok, all registered and getting the grant. However since the announcement, most people looking at a E-Niro 4+ have changed and are now considering a 2..... However, with only a 180m range and much lower spec, some have lost interest. Demand for a used First Edition has shot up though, they are about £28,000 at the moment, watch that touch £30k by next month.

So under the old scheme, E-Niro 4+ £39395 - Govt paid a £3000 grant, but got approx £7879 in VAT so their net revenue from the sale was £4879.

If a customer now switches to a 2 then the govt pay £2500 in grant and get back £6569 in VAT - So the net revenue from the sale is £4069. So by reducing the grant, they actually COST the revenue £810......

If that same customer switched to an MG5 for example at £21500 then the Government will get £3583 VAT and pay a grant of £2500 netting them £1083.

So, they have saved themselves £500 in grant, and lost themselves £3800 in VAT a net loss to the country of £3300 in revenue.


So rather than saving them money it’s costing more - utter lunacy and shows that the government are totally incompetent and don’t even understand how grants and VAT work.....

The problem is of course that the grant would have been from one pot, and the VAT goes to a different pot.

We are governed by morons.
 

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However, that money that the customer 'saves' by getting a cheaper car does end up being spent on something else- and probably a 'luxury' which VAT is paid on.

Although your last comment... that I definitely agree with! :ROFLMAO:
 

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The actual cost to build a car is usually a closely guarded commercial secret, so we have no way of knowing what the price is or what’s put on top.
it’s easy to work out the average margin made across the range. For example, with VAG they even break out revenue and profits per group so you can even compare average margin of VW vs Skoda, vs Seat etc.

Obviously there’s the dealer margin on top, but even that’s possible to estimate to a close level from analysis of various dealership groups that are public.
 

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I’m not sure that proves anything?
[...]
But it’s a made up set of figures (for the UK), is there an example of something available all over Europe?
OK, run the numbers on the ZOE ZE50 R110:
UK RRP after grant is £26,800
DE RRP after grant is £19,830 (€32,000 - €9,000)

Source: Renault Zoe ZE50 R110

It proves that manufacturers do pass most of the grant on to customers. Therefore higher grant = cheaper EVs = more EVs (see Norway) = better air quality :)
 

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You do know that Norway doesn't subsidise EV's instead it taxes ICE cars punitively so they cost the same as EV's. The only 'subsidies' are use of Bus Lanes, Free or reduced tolls on Tunnels and Ferries and Free parking in some cities.

I'm torn because subsidies do encourage manufacturers to enter the market and provide the products, but I prefer to Tax things we don't want to encourage like ICE cars, smoking, drinking etc.. rather than subsidise the things we want. Instead copy Norway and encourage EV's by offering decent infrastructure with regards to charging etc..
 

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OK, run the numbers on the ZOE ZE50 R110:
UK RRP after grant is £26,800
DE RRP after grant is £19,830 (€32,000 - €9,000)

Source: Renault Zoe ZE50 R110

It proves that manufacturers do pass most of the grant on to customers. Therefore higher grant = cheaper EVs = more EVs (see Norway) = better air quality :)
So, the pre-grant price for the Zoe in the UK is £1700 more than in Germany.

That begs the question, why?
 

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You do know that Norway doesn't subsidise EV's instead it taxes ICE cars punitively so they cost the same as EV's. The only 'subsidies' are use of Bus Lanes, Free or reduced tolls on Tunnels and Ferries and Free parking in some cities.
Incorrect. See: Norwegian EV policy

Not charging VAT and other fees is a subsidy. I would prefer the Norwegian model in the UK, but that is not the main point I was trying to make.
 
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